Are My Requests Unreasonable?

[chaddjohnson]

I sent the following in an email to my brother...what do you all think of the situation? Was I disrespectful? Unreasonable? A jerk? etc.?

 

-

 

I called mom to ask her a simple question, and the phone turned into an argument.

 

It's going quite well with my girlfriend and I. She is not religious, however, and she is quite blunt and tends to swear more than mom would like. I don't mind. Mom went off on me and said things like "I'm praying for you," "you're just being rebellious against the beliefs that you know are true," "is that the kind of person you want your sisters to be influenced by?" "in the future you're going to look back and regret abandoning your beliefs," "if you ever get into a close relationship with this girl, you're going to always wonder, and you're going to regret it because you have your past beliefs still with you, and you know what's right." etc.

 

I understand these things. However, I am sick of her, grandpa, my cousin and other people telling me these things constantly; my personal life and beliefs are no one else's business. The last three or four phone calls have been like this. So, I told her 1) my life is my own, and I do not appreciate her constantly forcing things on me; 2) I can and will decide for myself what is true and not; 3) I want to be left alone about my beliefs and personal life; 4) I will not push things on my sisters (I don't think I really have); 5) she will not push things on my future wife or children; 6) I want her to let me come to her if I have questions; 7) when I bring a girl to her house someday and if she pressures the girl or causes a problem for us, I will be angry with her and will refrain from visiting her thereafter.

 

She said I was being disrespectful and rude. She also says she is my mother and that she has a right and an obligation to tell me "what is on her heart." In actuality, I am putting my foot down and standing up for my own self. I feel have a right to believe differently than the rest of my family, and I think no one has any business telling me how I should live my life.

 

Are my requests unreasonable?

[Shyone]

I sent the following in an email to my brother...what do you all think of the situation? Was I disrespectful? Unreasonable? A jerk? etc.?

 

<snip>

She said I was being disrespectful and rude. She also says she is my mother and that she has a right and an obligation to tell me "what is on her heart." In actuality, I am putting my foot down and standing up for my own self. I feel have a right to believe differently than the rest of my family, and I think no one has any business telling me how I should live my life.

 

Are my requests unreasonable?

You were setting limits. I don't see that as unreasonable provided you are self-supporting (and even if you aren't, it might still not be unreasonable). Parents, and possibly especially religious ones, are not used to having their children dictate terms to them. It probably reminds them of Leviticus 20:9.

[Vixentrox]

I don't think it is unreasonable. Your mother's rants though are also reasonable. She is worried for you even if it is misguided and delusional.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Good job, I think you did great. Tell her what is disrespectful is her telling you what you believe. You appreciate her concerns, but they've been well stated, so that's that, and she should deal with it or leave you alone.

[CelticWhisper]

You're being perfectly reasonable. If I were in that situation I'd probably spell it out in the simplest terms I could: "Mom, I'm going to give you a choice. You can be a part of my life on my terms, or you can not be a part of my life at all and you will not see or hear from me again."

 

Whether you offer time to think about it or demand an immediate answer before you make the choice for her depends on how cutthroat you want to be about it. How cutthroat you want to be about it usually depends, in turn, on just how fed up you are. If this has been going on for a couple of months, I probably wouldn't kick it into high gear at this stage - just let her know that those are her choices and there is no option C. If she talks about hell or any of the other usual biblical bullshit, tell her that your fate is your problem and her fears are hers, and restate that THERE IS NO OPTION C.

 

If this has been going on for years, though, I'd probably follow up the initial ultimatum with "Make your choice. ... ... ... I mean right now. Choose whether you ever want to have anything to do with me again. Be aware that all outcomes are final and irreversible. If I don't get an answer in the next 10 seconds I will choose for you." Once you hear the response, I'd end the conversation quickly. Something like "Very well, you've made your choice. Goodbye." Or "Very well, I'll talk to you later. Goodbye."

 

Being that I'm not really an ex-Christian (just a non-Christian), I'm not familiar with those bible verses that deal with parent-child relationships, but even without them parents are generally used to having their children do as they say, so it's going to be jarring to suddenly have roles reversed. This is the reason behind the severity of many of the actions I advise - because in order to break through the shock and disbelief that usually takes over a parent's mind for a while at having their child tell them how things are going to be, you need to present consequences that are absolutely not worth getting one's way (i.e. very few parents consider momentary obedience worth the cost of losing one of their children forever to what they fear will be hate and resentment). Perhaps ironically, it works on the same principle as the threat of hell, only in this case it's used to attain freedom instead of servitude.

 

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of fortune and I hope things work out for you and yours.

[chaddjohnson]

Hey guys, thank you for the replies and support. I am glad you don't think I was unreasonable or disrespectful.

 

I received an email from her. Normally I wouldn't post such personal things, but this is a personal subject, and only the actual email (minus names) will portray things accurately.

 

-

 

HER EMAIL:

 

Well, just as I said, it is almost 2:30AM, but I did sleep a couple hours and then woke up frustrated. I thought about just calling and talking to you in the daytime but then decided not to because I won't be put through the same as last night.

 

The problem I awoke to is this......

Last Christmas you came. I, as your mother, was very happy to have you home for Christmas, and [my brother] too, the entire family together.....it meant a lot to me. At that time, we had three cars. One was the red car, which was mine in the beginning and you begged it off of me when you were in high school. Looking back, I never should have done that. The insurance was less for me with that car, I loved the car, easy for me to drive, and paid off. But, no, I let you persuade me, and I let you drive that car, purchasing another for myself....an expense we really could not afford. Then later I let you buy it off me for $2,000.00 giving you a break again. I now regret those decisions. I tried to help you but you did not treat that car good. You did not realize the financial impact all that had on us and did not appreciate what we did for you. You hot rodded it which resulted in it having problems later when we got it back.

 

Back to last Christmas......and this does not go back to either of your sisters!......we allowed, or "I" allowed you to take the red car, because we still had it, and had three cars, to use the car WITH THE GIRLS AND [MY BROTHER] in the car last Christmas. Both girls returned and told me how you handled the car with them in it....jerking it around, shifting hard, and just general misuse of the car. This was told to [my step dad] and I both....and told to us several times since in conversations. Because we needed to cut expenses we sold the car last spring. I wish I still had it....but it was having problems since you had given it back to us and we did not want to pay for continued repairs which WE HAD NOT CAUSED. So I awoke to this remembrance this early AM wondering what ever I am going to do with you coming this Christmas and then expecting to use our cars once again.

 

I find it interesting that your sisters found you out of line in your driving last Christmas. I praise them, in my mind, for the guts to tell [my step dad] and I. That took maturity on their part....and a conviction to be honest and forthright with their parents. Without me working, and even with a job in this economy, I won't be able to get a job that earns very much per hour. The one I was just called about, and don't know if I'll get, only pays $7.50 an hour without any benefits....but it would help with 20 hours a week. So I don't have the means to replace a car. You can say, "Mom, if something happens I'll pay for it". Well for your information, if you have an accident it will raise MY insurance and go against me. Also, what if the girls or [my brother] get hurt. Then also, you make the same as [my step dad], and you have said repeatedly how it isn't much....yet we have lived on that same income for years providing for [my step dad], me, both girls, and YOU. So we don't have the means to take chances. Yes, I could have an accident, but at least it is me driving my car on my policy.

 

So, since it is just September 3rd, and you paid for your trip here Christmas, I will give you a break and let you make your own decision ahead of time. Because of last night

conversation and what I have to tell you about not driving our vehicles while here Christmas, if you don't want to come and feel controlled then you can have the time and opportunity to do as you want, especially since you are 24 years old making your own decisions. But, I will say this......I did not make you drive that way last Christmas. That was something you did and now you pay the consequences for us finding out. And you do not take this against your sisters....they did the right thing in telling us.

 

I am your mother, that will never change. But it doesn't just seem this way, but it truly is that you have no respect. You said on the phone you didn't mean to be disrespectful but in actuality you were and are being disrespectful. Yes, I can take it. Does it hurt and make me think differently about you??...YES...and I won't lie about it to you. Do I want what you are doing to hurt our relationship?....NO....because I am not being the one disrespectful or hurtful.

So if you want to change your plans go ahead. Will it hurt others?....yes, it will hurt me.....AND YOUR SISTERS. You say you are 24, on your own, you will make your own decisons, etc......fine.......but that does not mean I believe you are making good decisions. Believe it or not, I did not call you, you are calling me, talking to me, and in that you want my approval, whether you realize it or not.....but with you going against what I taught you will not give my approval no matter what age. So this is it.....don't tell me about things you know are not right in my sight, IN GOD's SIGHT, and then expect me to be able to not be hurt by it. That hurts me. So as long as you do that it will hurt.....and that isn't showing love or respect to me. Also, for you to insist that I will not speak of my values and beliefs in my own home when you are present, is impossible, and I cannot do that before God or others. If you want this to drive a separation between us then that will be your decision. But it will be your decision. You can make an analogy about putting your bird in a cage when he misbehaves, but I am not the one misbehaving.....you are making me be disciplined by you because of YOUR DISRESPECT AND REBELLION AGAINST ALL THAT WAS TAUGHT YOU. I never would have thought of going into my parents home with your attitude....NEVER!!!....I loved them and deeply respected them to they day they died. And even with them dead my memories are with respect.

 

You can blame me for the past, but I cannot change it, and I won't ruin my life now because of it. I tried to fix it at the time and all I was met with was others not willing to be workable.....most of it wasn't me. It is past. I have two girls to raise, and I won't let the past cause us to be unhappy with the present. For you to believe you are happy now, yet you argue with all who truly love you and are concerned shows you really are not happy. You are holding us at bay telling us what we can and cannot say....which isn't unconditional love.....you are loving conditionally. To turn your back on all that you were raised will end up with misery and pain later on....even in the present. [my step dad] and I are concerned about your life style and the implications and example to the girls. They are older than your fathers children.....but still all are very impressionable. Your life style and implications it may have with them does have you treading on tender ground with [my step dad] and I. Because of your values we are concerned about the advise you may be giving them....especially [my sister]. This you are trying to avoid hearing from me, but if you chose to lose your virginity and take trust in a world of less values you are opening yourself up for all kinds of diseases. Herpes is for life.....it isn't cureable.....you just have to take drugs the rest of your life. And that is the least of the sexual diseases! But as you said you are a big boy now, and adult, 24 going toward 25, and you will live your life as you chose. But Chad do not expect me to approve or have any pride in your verbal disrespect. And don't say I'm preaching at you when you know you are telling me things that are directly against what I believe and morals and values. So you don't want me "preaching at you", or telling you you are wrong......but I will no longer allow your disrespect. If you don't want to talk to me then I guess that is your choice.

 

With that being said, emailed, I will try to sleep. Does it make me feel better? NO. I wish this wasn't happening. I wish life was not this way. I guess life will just take it's course....but eternity will have it's place also. Whether you believe the truth as I see it does matter to me and the ones who love you.

 

But......what if I am believing a lie? Am I making a fool of my life? I don't believe so. To gamble.....I win both ways.....Jesus is truth....I have eternity in heaven. If I'm wrong what do I lose?

 

Your way......reject Jesus and Jesus is the truth....you spend eternity in hell. Reject Jesus and Jesus isn't true.....you probably will estrange yourself from the ones who truly love you.....you will drop your values and possibly end up with diseases the rest of your life...shortening your life.....and there are a lot of other consequences also. If you say you aren't dropping your morals, I'm not either. And I don't believe I live a stuffy life. I'm not a shallow "Christian" like most of the people here in the south. Longview just isn't an exciting place, there is nothing to do here, but that doesn't change my life style. If I lived back in California my life style would be the same. There would be a lot more activities I could do. It would only change if I dropped my morals.....and then there is risk with diseases. So really what is it that you are so HOT to have freedoms from.....free sex? .....that's about all I can think there is. Loose morals.

 

I'd rather gamble on Jesus and be a fool in the end than be a fool for all eternity.

 

-

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

The car has nothing to do with the things we talked about last night.

 

Here are my terms. If you want to see me in the future, you are going to have to abide by them--those are your options. Either our relationship will be mutual, or there will be nothing. I, in turn, will mutually 1) respect your home and it's rules and 2) avoid influencing [my sisters] in ways of which you all disapprove.

 

1. I will come to you if I have questions or wish to talk;

2. I want to simply have a relationship with you. I do not want to talk about belief-related things when I call or visit you--unless I ask you questions and want to be in conversation;

3. I will decide for myself what things I think are true and not and act on those things as I see fit;

4. You all will not talk to my future wife or children about belief-related things unless they willfully initiate and want to be in conversation;

5. When I bring a girl to your house someday, she will not be pressured, and no problems will be caused for us.

 

Things were said in a heated tone last night, but the fact that I am laying down these terms is not a form of disrespect from me to you.

 

I will give you time to think about these things.

[florduh]

What a manipulative, self righteous bitch.

 

Sorry. It had to be said.

[BlueGiant]

Leverage, coercion, manipulation. Yeah, best to nip this thing in the bud now.

[Shyone]

Hey guys, thank you for the replies and support. I am glad you don't think I was unreasonable or disrespectful.

 

I'd rather gamble on Jesus and be a fool in the end than be a fool for all eternity.

 

-

 

The theists' last refuge: Pascal's Wager.

 

Send her a refutation of the Wager if you want to piss her off more.

 

Otherwise, continue to be firm but respectful.

 

P.S. You might want to paraphrase her letters rather than post them.

[RabbleRabble]

HAHAHa I spy Pascal's Wager in there! Always a good sign of someone who does not have the ability or drive to argue from reason.

 

This woman is a hateful nasty manipulate snake. The very act of you not being who she wants you to be is disrespectful in her eyes. She opens her letter with some unrelated story about the car in an attempt to set herself up as the giving self-sacrificing person and you as the selfish ingrate. Throughout the letter she attempts to make you feel guilty, threatens you by implying she will reduce contact with your sisters, and tries to make you feel like a dirty person only interested in sex.

 

I feel sick to my stomach just reading it. I would cut ties immediately if she refuses to meet your conditions.

[Guest Davka]

A few suggestions:

 

- Rent a car when you visit next Christmas. Drive it to her home from the airport. End of disagreement. (Try Budget or Enterprize rentals and reserve online in advance - they're pretty cheap).

 

- Keep refusing to play her guilt-trip game. Just calmly re-state your conditions for a peaceful relationship.

 

7) when I bring a girl to her house someday and if she pressures thegirl or causes a problem for us, I will be angry with her and willrefrain from visiting her thereafter.

 

I would re-phrase this. No need to mention your anger, it's a given. How about: "I willrefrain from visiting her until she agrees to change her behavior."

 

You're doing good. Keep it up. Setting boundaries with a manipulative parent is not easy. Been there, done that, got the scars.

[chaddjohnson]

Christian belief and following them is a way of life. Atheism and agnosticism, likewise, are ways of life, as is a belief in evolution, but I don't go around constantly talking about these things. I don't see where my family gets off preaching at me constantly.

 

She does not want me preaching atheism and evolution to her family, yet somehow it is okay for her to preach her beliefs to me--and my future wife and children--whenever she pleases.

 

Is this not a double-standard? Am I missing something?

[mwc]

So I have to ask if the girlfriend was asked to tone it down a bit in the presence of mom? That seems fair if mom was asked to do likewise.

 

The rest sounds like mom is a bit jealous. She's already pulled out all the passive aggressive stuff. Basically called new girl basically a disease ridden whore with loose morals. And all the typical stuff a jealous ex might toss out to slander the new person. Plus she's digging up a bunch of unrelated things from the past and just tossing them in for good measure. Is a parent so ignorant that they don't realize that a young male won't "abuse" a car to some degree? I suppose that could happen but really she's just "grounded" you and has taken away your car driving privileges because your sisters told on you. Being under 25 makes car rental next to impossible so it may work (you can go into a rental place, try Enterprise since I rented there under 25, and check at the counters instead of online).

 

I have a feeling mom was never really alright with "losing" her boy to begin with and all this is making it that much worse. What she doesn't seem to understand is that the more of this stuff she's doing the further she's shoving you away. I think she thinks that by reminding you of your past and where you came from that it will "trigger" something (like in a sappy movie or something) and cause you to come running back home, to your core values and to her. But life rarely works that way. She can't see the opposite is happening.

 

Why do I get the feeling your mom is one of those types of moms that "tidy up" but not to actually clean but to snoop? Even after you moved out? I could be wrong but I get that vibe.

 

mwc

[dagnarus]

Christian belief and following them is a way of life. Atheism and agnosticism, likewise, are ways of life, as is a belief in evolution, but I don't go around constantly talking about these things. I don't see where my family gets off preaching at me constantly.

 

She does not want me preaching atheism and evolution to her family, yet somehow it is okay for her to preach her beliefs to me--and my future wife and children--whenever she pleases.

 

Is this not a double-standard? Am I missing something?

 

Because atheism and agnosticism is just ways that reprobates use to justify their rebellion against god (the bible says so).

 

Whereas Jesus is the light of the world.

 

Or to put it another way she's right, your wrong. Your not going to be able to convince here otherwise. The best you can hope for is to set up boundaries.

[CelticWhisper]

Damn, Skef, I couldn't have put it better myself. It's a waiting game from here on out - see what she says, be ready to be kind but firm. Also, be prepared to reiterate that no, there really truly isn't an option C, and these boundaries are not open to negotiation. She can either accept the boundaries you set, ALL OF THEM, or lose you forever.

[Cudds]

But......what if I am believing a lie? Am I making a fool of my life? I don't believe so. To gamble.....I win both ways.....Jesus is truth....I have eternity in heaven. If I'm wrong what do I lose?

 

Your way......reject Jesus and Jesus is the truth....you spend eternity in hell. Reject Jesus and Jesus isn't true.....you probably will estrange yourself from the ones who truly love you.....you will drop your values and possibly end up with diseases the rest of your life...shortening your life.....and there are a lot of other consequences also. If you say you aren't dropping your morals, I'm not either. And I don't believe I live a stuffy life. I'm not a shallow "Christian" like most of the people here in the south. Longview just isn't an exciting place, there is nothing to do here, but that doesn't change my life style. If I lived back in California my life style would be the same. There would be a lot more activities I could do. It would only change if I dropped my morals.....and then there is risk with diseases. So really what is it that you are so HOT to have freedoms from.....free sex? .....that's about all I can think there is. Loose morals.

 

I'd rather gamble on Jesus and be a fool in the end than be a fool for all eternity.

 

The biggest problem with Pascal's wager is that you can't force belief. She's right, If you're wrong, you're fucked. But you didn't chose to stop believing. I personally wanted to continue believing but just couldn't.

[Guest Davka]

The biggest problem with Pascal's wager is that you can't force belief. She's right, If you're wrong, you're fucked. But you didn't chose to stop believing. I personally wanted to continue believing but just couldn't.

 

Yeah, but if she's wrong, she's fucked too. It's not like Christianity is the only game in town - what if the real religion is some obscure cannibal cult and she's going to be eaten for all eternity because she didn't sacrifice a live chicken covered in menstrual blood?

 

Pascal's Wager fails because you cannot please all the possible "gods" at the same time. No matter which way you choose, you're gambling. And there's a possibility you'll get it wrong, if the supernatural exists at all.

 

Lucky for us, it's all a crock anyways.

[CelticWhisper]

Just read the part about renting a car under 25.

 

Dollar. Dollar Rent-a-Car will not only rent to people under 25, but will accept debit cards if you don't have a credit card. Other places will rent to you under 25 (I think Enterprise was one) but will insist on a credit card.

 

I was out in Oregon with my then-girlfriend as she was doing some paleontology field work (oh, no, EEEEEEBIL evolution!) and we needed to rent a car. We reserved a Hyundai Accent from Enterprise and when we got there, it was a problem that I was 24 and only had a debit card. They directed us to Dollar and Dollar happily rented us a car. For roughly the same price, we got a Subaru Outback (basically the geologist's dream car) instead.

 

So yeah, car rental when you're sub-25 can be a pain but it's not completely impossible. It'd be worth it to me to do that and see the look on my mom's face (assuming she were doing these things; fortunately for me, she's a very nice person) as her little "restrictions" were jerked right out from under her.

[chaddjohnson]

Just read the part about renting a car under 25.

 

Dollar. Dollar Rent-a-Car will not only rent to people under 25, but will accept debit cards if you don't have a credit card. Other places will rent to you under 25 (I think Enterprise was one) but will insist on a credit card.

 

I was out in Oregon with my then-girlfriend as she was doing some paleontology field work (oh, no, EEEEEEBIL evolution!) and we needed to rent a car. We reserved a Hyundai Accent from Enterprise and when we got there, it was a problem that I was 24 and only had a debit card. They directed us to Dollar and Dollar happily rented us a car. For roughly the same price, we got a Subaru Outback (basically the geologist's dream car) instead.

 

So yeah, car rental when you're sub-25 can be a pain but it's not completely impossible. It'd be worth it to me to do that and see the look on my mom's face (assuming she were doing these things; fortunately for me, she's a very nice person) as her little "restrictions" were jerked right out from under her.

 

Thanks for the information. Hm, it WOULD be great to see the look on her face.

 

And for the record, I did NOT shift the car hard. I don't think I even drove it roughly. My step-dad drives slow as hell, and my sisters were probably subconsciously comparing my driving to his. And I mean, I hadn't been there for like 6 months...my driving was a bit new to them, so of course it's going to be different.

 

God, my family really pisses me off. I refuse to put up with this mess any longer and will be severing the connection with my mother within a month if she presses me anymore--until she abides by terms and respects me as an adult.

[CelticWhisper]

With regard to car rental, here ya go:

 

http://www.dollar.com/Car_Rental_Information/Main/Rent_a_Car_Under_25.aspx

 

I googled for "dollar rent-a-car 'under 25'"

 

You can try the same with Enterprise, Avis, Hertz, etc. and see what comes up.

[godlessgrrl]

Wow. Your mother's response was pure, uncut, unadulterated, grade A high octane guilt trip.

 

I don't think you're being unreasonable in the least. In fact I think you were far more generous in your boundary-setting than I would have been if it were my family. Very clear, very firm, stern but reasonable. She may be worried and upset, but whether or not she can step out of her anxiety and childishness and actually address you as an adult about it remains to be seen. Maybe she can, maybe she can't - but if she can't, you don't have to stick around and put up with her manipulation simply because she's your mother.

 

I'd say give it some time and see how she responds. If she calms down and can talk to you and you guys can redraw the bounds of your relationship, that's good. If she can't, it's okay to refuse to talk to her unless she acts like an adult.

 

Ties of blood aren't any excuse for treating people like crap.

[chaddjohnson]

I think that requesting respect of boundaries was perfectly fine; however, threatening to disown her is not wise, IMO. Life is very short. Twentysomethings are quick to lose sight of that. Think long and hard before doing rash, angry things capable of causing an entire family tremendous pain.

 

P.S. A gf who refuses to curb a swearing habit out of respect for an elder who is one of her partner's loved ones= also not such a great sign. Nobody is telling your gf that she should tie on an apron and be Donna Reed; just that acting crass in front of an older and more traditional person is unkind, or at the very least, boorish and obnoxious. There is language I would happily let loose in front of old friends, that I would never speak around an elderly neighbor.

 

I am not trying to judge you- it's your life. Do what you have to do. But I hope that you will at least take my comments into consideration. They come from a person who no longer has to worry about getting carded or renting cars

 

Nono you have good points. I'll talk to her about this tomorrow, as my Dad (whom I get along with) is coming to visit me, and they'll probably meet one another. Thanks dude.

[chaddjohnson]

Ties of blood aren't any excuse for treating people like crap.

 

I have to agree. She's used the "I'm your mother" argument on me, and it just doesn't cut it. I am a fellow human being to her, and if I want her advice, I will ask for it.

[OnceConvinced]

I'm with everyone else here. I'm appalled at the things your mother is saying in that letter. Guilt trips, threats, and emotional manipulation are her game. I wont say anything more, because she's your mother.

[chaddjohnson]

Skeft,

 

I have a mother much like yours. She does not play the belief related issues as yours but mine would insist on running both mine, my wife's and my daughter's life. One day, I had enough and got in her face and unloaded on her like a Marine Corp drill instructor...NO KIDDING. She was physically shaking when I got finished. I am not sorry I did it. She has NEVER overtly tried to play those little manipulation games since. She has tried to be subtle but all I have to do is just get mildly cross way with her and she backs down quickly. It also helped that after I chewed her ass loudly, I cut off all communication with her for 6 months and the biggest blow to her was not allowing her to see our daughter during that time. She got the message. If your mother is stubborn you have to meet her mean for mean and back it up with teeth. Don't be the first to go back, let her make the first move. There is an emotional reason she is that way and she is ruled by those emotions. She will be the first to break if you do similarly as I did. She will not be able to help it. Good luck dude. I know the issues you are dealing with...IT SUCKS!

 

Wow. I will definitely keep that in mind.