Cudds Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 So I started a thread a few days ago about a debate my husband and I are having with friends about why we left Christianity. One friend has assured me that he reads material opposing Christianity with an open mind and he can not believe that a person who has read the bible and actually searched for god could not find it to be true. I told him that if he was genuinely interested then maybe since he is going to bible college, he should read some of Ehrman's work just to see what he is up against. This is how he replied (half a day later): Cudds - the thesis in JC interrupted is really interesting as you said.Examining the Bible and early Christianity like any other area of study as done in Jesus, Interrupted shows, as Ehrman intends to show, they look very man-made. We have this holy book that has been of foremost importance in Western civilization, yet the original texts that comprise it are lost, the surviving texts are copies that are from centuries later much of the history in it is not complete because it is salvation history not Chronological; and theology on: Jesus, heaven and hell, etc., are known to be devloped over time in the reformtion enlightenment and recent modern theology very man-made. Ehrman does a great job of explaining all that and more. Jesus, Interrupted offers one a thorough look into the origins and history of the most significant Christian beliefs. But his conclusions are wrong. The problem is assumptions: his underlying assumption that nothing supernatural is occurring in the Scripture. Buried within Ehrman's writing is the assumption that nothing of God is going on with the Bible. Obviously this is a difference of opinion as he would say that my faulty assumption is that I believe there is something supernatural going on. Once you start with a purely humanistic origin of the Bible and view its development as being separate from all Divine intervention...then I can see how some things seem illogical. However, I also think that God's working to bring us the Bible plays a big role in the discussion. If you want a popularization of historical criticism, then Ehrman comes close. But his sweeping generalizations (everyone teaches this, all pastors have heard this, the Bible is full of contradictions, etc) leave one wanting to know more about each allegation. In the end, Ehrman is neither compelling enough, nor scholarly enough to turn Jesus, Interrupted into the next status-quo-shattering book when regarding biblical study. I wasn’t offended by Ehrman, but then neither was I convinced that all his statements are compelling. thoughts? The first thing that grabbed my attention is that this is written in American English and he is, in fact, not American. Of corse with a quick google search I found this: ‘Jesus, Interrupted’ Neither Offends Nor Convinces « Confessions of a Small-Church PastorMy link What a knob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 The first thing that grabbed my attention is that this is written in American English and he is, in fact, not American. Bad grammar and punctuation as well. As for this -"The underlying assumption is that nothing supernatural is occurring in scripture", the stupidity is mind boggling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeygirl Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 He can say that but it is already a shattering book regarding biblical studies atleast to your average Christian. From what I understand Ehrman isn't saying anything new he is just making it clear and putting it out there for your everyday person. Something I've learned is that for the most part Pastors disregard evidence. They typically don't get into apologetics because then they have to look at evidence from the other side, that can be damning they are much more interested in faith, community, living together etc. imo all that is surface bs though many of them think its the deeper part of Christianity. And yeah his grammar and punctuation is worse then mine is on a message board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted September 3, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted September 3, 2009 Imagine that - a Christian who can't/won't think for himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 The first reaction to opposition will always be 'quick, why is he wrong?' nowadays google can help answer that question without actually trying to solve it yourself. You should call him on his academic dishonesty...that hopefully won't fly in bible school Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbleRabble Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 At least he made it easy to spot his inability to form opinions of his own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 What's salvation history anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 What's salvation history anyway? A misspelling. It was supposed to be a reference to Pavlov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksandstuff Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Maybe you could use his act of plagarism to shame him into actually reading the book now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davka Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Check out the last paragraph on this page. Cudds - did you call your friend on his plagiarism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Well at least you can say he cut and pasted from more than one source. I guess that's something isn't it? But seriously who cuts and paste as a review of a book for thier friend. It's not like it's his english homework or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisedPB Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Well at least you can say he cut and pasted from more than one source. I guess that's something isn't it? But seriously who cuts and paste as a review of a book for thier friend. It's not like it's his english homework or something. That's what I thought, too. Odd. You could at least share your own thoughts with a friend. As far as a christian just parroting what a supposed authority figure says, that is not surprising at all. I heard it all the time at church. The reaction to the Harry Potter books was a classic example. I can't tell you how many people would start ranting about Harry Potter, and I'd ask them if they'd even read the book, and they'd say no, but I read ABOUT it. James Dobson said it's bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cudds Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 Hi all, I am going to call him on it even though my husband already has: Christians who have been brainwashed by theology will take any opinion that is for their cause and dismiss any that is against it. There is a big difference between really considering an alternate point of view and just taking another Christians word for it. You clearly copy and pasted Chuck Warnock’s criticism/review of Ehrman’s book. See, you might agree with it, but you have taken it on as your own very quickly. The thing is Cudds and I have lived Christianity. We have lived atheism. We know how to think critically and not take anything for truth unless it demands it. I know you grew up with Christianity taught as truth so I don’t expect you to be able to seriously consider any other point of view. We know he has read it and not responded as he was online about an hour later. I have a lot more I would like to say to him on the matter. Thanks for pointing out that other review Davka. Cutting and pasting a review for me was a strange thing to do and It doesn't even address most of what we have been talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 They cut and paste because they find our arguments so well thought out and compelling, they assume we must be cutting and pasting ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Hi all, I am going to call him on it even though my husband already has: Christians who have been brainwashed by theology will take any opinion that is for their cause and dismiss any that is against it. There is a big difference between really considering an alternate point of view and just taking another Christians word for it. You clearly copy and pasted Chuck Warnock’s criticism/review of Ehrman’s book. See, you might agree with it, but you have taken it on as your own very quickly. The thing is Cudds and I have lived Christianity. We have lived atheism. We know how to think critically and not take anything for truth unless it demands it. I know you grew up with Christianity taught as truth so I don’t expect you to be able to seriously consider any other point of view. We know he has read it and not responded as he was online about an hour later. I have a lot more I would like to say to him on the matter. Thanks for pointing out that other review Davka. Cutting and pasting a review for me was a strange thing to do and It doesn't even address most of what we have been talking about. When you add your comments regarding this, I would suggest pointing out that plagiarism is dishonest, and how can he expect you to trust his position on something if he is willing to be dishonest? Also, similar to what your husband said, I would suggest pointing out that instead of just taking a reviewer's word for it, he should actually read the book for himself. Good luck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Another fine example of a christian with their head stuck in the sand. It is pretty sad, however, when your friend (who probably didn't even read the book for fear of it hurting his faith) would be so bold as to lie - perhaps pointing out the obvious flaws in his own faith would be useful - in most any circle plagarism is a bad thing, often enough to get you an F in college classes, but he's willing not only to use it with a friend, but also to use and claim it as his own in order to avoid really discussing things. Might be worth a phone call so he can't have time to prepare a lie between questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenhunter Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 so what happened? I gotta know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cudds Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 Well, we got back from a weekend away to find that he wasn't embaressed at all and he is still talking down to us. This is all he had to say about the book issue: I think if you had critically read the material by erhman then you should have come to the same conclusions as me and the review I read. I am so angry at this person right now. I don't even know why but I need a few days to calm down before calling him on his dishonesty properly. Also he had this gem in response to my husbands message: You are right I have grown up in the church but this does not mean that I have always been a Christian or have been brainwashed. No other "religion" or "worldview" makes sense. Thats it. No explanation. Does he even realise what he is saying? Well of course nothing else makes sense to YOU, it's all you've ever known! It's not just this guy who is getting to me, the sister in law who deleted us over this isn't just some distant relative. She is someone we see everyday and now needless to say, things are very strained. I have a new baby and these personal stresses on top of the sleep deprivation are taking their toll. I know you have all heard this crap before, but it sure does feel good to tell someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 No. The brainwashed would never realize that they were, in fact, brainwashed. Of course, to a fundy, no other religion or world view would make sense. I recommend cutting off contact with this person for awhile or saying that religious matters are no longer up for discussion. Take care of yourself and try not to let him get to you, Cudds. You have much more important things to tend to, like the baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 A xtian saw me reading Sagan's Cosmos and told me I should watch out because he was a Pagan. I laughed right in his face and said Sagan was no Pagan, he was an Atheist. Xtian says that isn't much better. I then asked if he ever read any Sagan, he said no. How can you know he is a "Pagan" if you never read any of his books? His answer was that he has read "excerpts". i.e. He read what someone else said about Sagan. I laughed him out of the room and he never brought it up again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Well, we got back from a weekend away to find that he wasn't embaressed at all and he is still talking down to us. This is all he had to say about the book issue: I think if you had critically read the material by erhman then you should have come to the same conclusions as me and the review I read. I am so angry at this person right now. I don't even know why but I need a few days to calm down before calling him on his dishonesty properly. LOL, it's amazing how screwed up some people can be. Maybe point out that HE should actually read the book FOR HIMSELF before accusing you of not reading it critically. Or maybe just let it simmer. I don't know, but I would be extremely pissed off as well if I were in your shoes. Good luck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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