The Bad Attitudes

[agnosticator]

I don't get why everyone I know thinks the Beatitudes are earth-shattering moral gems. Maybe it's because I relate them directly to the christian doctrines they seem to come from: The Persecution Complex and the Martyrdom Complex.

 

I have to comment on them some, and bring attention to Jesus' other often overlooked "beatitudes" named:

 

 

THE BAD ATTITUDES

 

When Jesus gave the Sermon On The Mount, he included eight sayings that became known and touted by Christians as The Beatitudes. They are found in Matthew 5:3-10. But there are another eight sayings that are largely ignored by Christians, which I shall call The Bad Attitudes. They are found in Luke 6:20-26. Let us compare them:

 

 

Beatitude 1. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

Bad Attitude 1. Blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

 

Poor in spirit refers to being humble, so you get to go to heaven. But being poor means God will give you His kingdom after you die. He won't do s**t for you while you live!

 

 

Beatitude 2. Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

 

Bad Attitude 2. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you will be filled.

 

When will the christian be comforted? Maybe now or maybe in heaven. Who knows? But if you are hungry, you'll have to wait a looooong time! That manna from heaven ain't comin'!

 

 

Beatitude 3. Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

 

Bad Attitude 3. Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

 

Being meek here means to be tame or mild (praus in Greek). How are we to be tame? Maybe by deferring or yielding to others? Being submissive? Obedient? It is unclear. What is clear is God leaves the christian the earth in his Will even though he won't die. But they must die first to inherit it.

 

I don't see anything to laugh about when someone dies, as Bad Attitude #3 says. Maybe God's mysterious way sees what's funny?

 

 

Beatitude 4. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

 

Bad Attitude 4. Blessed are you when men hate you, when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man.

 

I thought when christians repent, they are covered by God's righteousness. Their own is like used tampons. So maybe they should want to be righteous, but won't be right with God until they die.

 

Bad Attitude #4 exposes my suspicion that christianity is masochistic yet again. A good incentive to go out and testify to those unbelievers!

 

 

Beatitude 5. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

 

Bad Attitude 5. Woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.

 

I'm all for obtaining mercy and being merciful. But those going to hell surely will be missing out on their share. I guess when I get to hell, all the mercy I gave won't be honored. Mercy, mercy me!!

 

We have a switch in gears with Bad Attitude #5. This is a veiled threat for those rich christians. But where does God draw the line between rich and poor? Is there a middle class allowance?

 

 

Beatitude 6. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

 

Bad Attitude 6. Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry.

 

Being pure in heart can mean our motives are moral, or that we are not "of the world", but are clean and righteous.

 

Bad Attitude #6 really pushes for us to be hungry (as in #2). Both are referring to food, not righteousness, so we are condemned for eating too much. Or are we condemned for not going hungry?

 

 

Beatitude 7.Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God.

 

Bad Attitude 7. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep.

 

I'm all for Beatitude #7! But Bad Attitude #7? I think I get it now. All laughing is for heaven only. If you laugh now, God will make sure you feel bad forever. If you mourn someone's death, you'll forget all about that loved one in heaven because you'll be too busy laughing!

 

 

Beatitude 8. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

Bad Attitude 8. Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

 

Beatitude #8 is the same as Bad Attitude #4. Bad Attitude #8 plainly states we are not to be well respected by all, or we may be considered dead inside or just contrary. So be humble and get persecuted a.s.a.p.!

 

 

What have we learned from all this? Christians ignore alot in their Bibles and are guilty of neglecting their godly duties. Just because the God of the Bible has a bad attitude, doesn't mean they shouldn't obey His commands. So get out there and embrace those complexes christians!

[oddbird1963]

That's one thing I have not yet embarked upon since deconverting. A critique of the Beatitudes.

 

And you are absolutely right that the Lukan version of the beatitudes are largely ignored. No one ever asked me to reconcile them and I never took the initiative to do so.

[Vigile]

I don't get why everyone I know thinks the Beatitudes are earth-shattering moral gems.

 

I've been saying something like this for years. Jesus was overrated by just about every measure.

 

The beatitudes are obviously just propaganda for pulling in the class of people who felt underrepresented by the more elitist systems of the day. It's a tool that takes advantage of the lower classes.

[OpheliaGinger]

Basically, to be a good Christian, one has to be emaciated, so dirt poor they eat dirt, depressed, and schizophrenic--add homeless for good measure.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

 

What have we learned from all this? Christians ignore alot in their Bibles and are guilty of neglecting their godly duties. Just because the God of the Bible has a bad attitude, doesn't mean they shouldn't obey His commands. So get out there and embrace those complexes christians!

 

I always saw it as a message of hope to all those that were repressed of the group, or time.

[GraphicsGuy]

I could never figure out how the Prosperity Doctrine fit into the Beatitudes...just more mental-hurdles for Xians to ignore...

[agnosticator]

 

 

 

What have we learned from all this? Christians ignore alot in their Bibles and are guilty of neglecting their godly duties. Just because the God of the Bible has a bad attitude, doesn't mean they shouldn't obey His commands. So get out there and embrace those complexes christians!

 

I always saw it as a message of hope to all those that were repressed of the group, or time.

 

You mean hope for the downtrodden? Yes, but it is a false hope. But for those who are not downtrodden, much of what is said is a demand to become downtrodden:i.e. poor, hungry, disrespected, persecuted, and lacking happiness.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

What have we learned from all this? Christians ignore alot in their Bibles and are guilty of neglecting their godly duties. Just because the God of the Bible has a bad attitude, doesn't mean they shouldn't obey His commands. So get out there and embrace those complexes christians!

 

I always saw it as a message of hope to all those that were repressed of the group, or time.

 

Exactly, it's a perfect recruiting tool. If you want to start a big religion would you appeal to the minority elite or the impoverished masses?

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

 

What have we learned from all this? Christians ignore alot in their Bibles and are guilty of neglecting their godly duties. Just because the God of the Bible has a bad attitude, doesn't mean they shouldn't obey His commands. So get out there and embrace those complexes christians!

 

I always saw it as a message of hope to all those that were repressed of the group, or time.

 

You mean hope for the downtrodden? Yes, but it is a false hope. But for those who are not downtrodden, much of what is said is a demand to become downtrodden:i.e. poor, hungry, disrespected, persecuted, and lacking happiness.

 

That may be why He told the rich man to sell all he had and follow Him, because if you are not downtrodden, and gave everything away having to rely solely on God, then if given the privileges of wealth again, it would be based on a stronger level of faith.

 

If one is downtrodden, as you say, and follows Christ, His teachings, the Beatitudes, etc; later to become highly esteemed within themselves, and their faith. If this person where to become wealthy, they would be wealthy based on the premise of Christ and faith in God; which would have a different outlook.

 

I can honestly say that I see a different aspect of this because I have lived in this setting to a degree. I wasn't necessarily rich, but I was good financially. I gave it all up to follow God; and later having a similar wealth and responsibility, see things in a different manner.

 

I think the Beatitudes was a message of hope for those that needed it; and it was a challenge to the rest. One can't serve God and money; but not to say that one can't have money and serve God.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Exactly, it's a perfect recruiting tool. If you want to start a big religion would you appeal to the minority elite or the impoverished masses?

 

I can't really disagree with you there Vigile, as even Christ himself thanked God for the people that God was giving Him to share His Word with.

[agnosticator]

That may be why He told the rich man to sell all he had and follow Him, because if you are not downtrodden, and gave everything away having to rely solely on God, then if given the privileges of wealth again, it would be based on a stronger level of faith.

 

If one is downtrodden, as you say, and follows Christ, His teachings, the Beatitudes, etc; later to become highly esteemed within themselves, and their faith. If this person where to become wealthy, they would be wealthy based on the premise of Christ and faith in God; which would have a different outlook.

 

 

I also was poor as a believer, and now as a nonbeliever am better off. I have less desire for material possessions now than when I was a believer. The have-nots will desire things because they have not experienced possessing anything. There is a fear aspect that possessing material things is evil, because it is easier for the camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven!

 

Since experiencing actually possessing what I desired, I found that the trite saying " the best things in life are free" is really true. Christianity didn't teach me this. Now I have little desire for material possessions, as I gave most of what I owned away. I don't mean that it makes me a better person, it's just a shift in my values. I don't envy rich people's lifestyles. My outlook and self esteem changed dramatically upon LEAVING christianity.

 

So, what exactly in Christ's teachings gives one a "stronger level of faith"? What causes one "to become highly esteemed within [oneself] and [one's] faith"?

 

 

 

 

I think the Beatitudes was a message of hope for those that needed it; and it was a challenge to the rest. One can't serve God and money; but not to say that one can't have money and serve God.

 

I agree, except for what the new testament says about possessions and being rich. It condemns believers who have money. Though it is true that from the believer's perspective, one can have money and serve god. It's just that Jesus disagrees.

 

Edited to add:

What do you think about "The Bad Attitudes"? In other words, what about the other sermon? It is different than the Beatitudes. How does it relate to what you said?

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Edited to add:

What do you think about "The Bad Attitudes"? In other words, what about the other sermon? It is different than the Beatitudes. How does it relate to what you said?

 

Well, the Woes were to the Pharisees I believe, and the sermon on the mount was to the followers, right?

[agnosticator]

 

 

Edited to add:

What do you think about "The Bad Attitudes"? In other words, what about the other sermon? It is different than the Beatitudes. How does it relate to what you said?

 

Well, the Woes were to the Pharisees I believe, and the sermon on the mount was to the followers, right?

 

 

The Woes were for his followers and disciples (Luke 6:17-20):

 

17He went down with them and stood on a level place. A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon, 18who had come to hear him and to be healed of their diseases. Those troubled by evil[a] spirits were cured, 19and the people all tried to touch him, because power was coming from him and healing them all.

 

20Looking at his disciples, he said:

 

(the Woes...)

[Shyone]

 

 

Exactly, it's a perfect recruiting tool. If you want to start a big religion would you appeal to the minority elite or the impoverished masses?

 

I can't really disagree with you there Vigile, as even Christ himself thanked God for the people that God was giving Him to share His Word with.

Split personality, or two gods?

 

"I thank Me from the bottom of Our hearts."

 

Truly nonsensical.

[Shyone]

 

I can honestly say that I see a different aspect of this because I have lived in this setting to a degree. I wasn't necessarily rich, but I was good financially. I gave it all up to follow God; and later having a similar wealth and responsibility, see things in a different manner.

One day, if you're lucky, you'll realize that any wealth you have accumulated did not come from any immaterial, invisible and undetectable being. It comes from your own efforts and from your interactions with other people.

 

Even you know that it doesn't take belief to become rich, or to gain riches after losing or giving them up.

[oddbird1963]

 

I can honestly say that I see a different aspect of this because I have lived in this setting to a degree. I wasn't necessarily rich, but I was good financially. I gave it all up to follow God; and later having a similar wealth and responsibility, see things in a different manner.

One day, if you're lucky, you'll realize that any wealth you have accumulated did not come from any immaterial, invisible and undetectable being. It comes from your own efforts and from your interactions with other people.

 

Even you know that it doesn't take belief to become rich, or to gain riches after losing or giving them up.

 

And don't forget about those who "gave it all up for God" and ended up in financial disaster and failure. Those are the ones who get no exposure. These are not "sexy" stories that titillate congregations and encourage them to give aggressively in order to receive blessings from god.

 

But these cases do demonstrate that accumulation of wealth is a combination of talent, risk-tolerance and luck. None of which have anything to do with a god.

[Shyone]

 

And don't forget about those who "gave it all up for God" and ended up in financial disaster and failure. Those are the ones who get no exposure. These are not "sexy" stories that titillate congregations and encourage them to give aggressively in order to receive blessings from god.

 

But these cases do demonstrate that accumulation of wealth is a combination of talent, risk-tolerance and luck. None of which have anything to do with a god.

You raise an excellent point. That happened to me in a way. I was teetering on my belief and decided to pledge more money than I could reasonably afford, and in fact, I had to default.

 

But, then, I wasn't a True Christian^TM at the time. I guess.

[NotBlinded]

I don't get why everyone I know thinks the Beatitudes are earth-shattering moral gems. Maybe it's because I relate them directly to the christian doctrines they seem to come from: The Persecution Complex and the Martyrdom Complex.

 

I have to comment on them some, and bring attention to Jesus' other often overlooked "beatitudes" named:

 

 

THE BAD ATTITUDES

 

Read them again, but this time don't put the kingdom of heaven as being a place after you die. Read them with the kingdom of heaven is within type of view applicable to one's life now. They may have something to do with attachments.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

Too bad all that giving up your money for god has turned into propaganda like this.

 

Give us your money - you will become richer! Or if you don't on earth, at least you will in heaven! Your mansion will be bigger than your neighbors'!

 

You know who it makes richer? The ones at the top of the heap, whatever hierarchy that exists in the particular church you gave your money to. Plus this really sends a bad message that you don't have to work and god will just rain money down on you if you give enough of it to him. I always hated the tithing sermons and wanted to smack those hounding the congregation for money. Quite a nice business having a church is...

[Shyone]

Too bad all that giving up your money for god has turned into propaganda like this.

 

Give us your money - you will become richer! Or if you don't on earth, at least you will in heaven! Your mansion will be bigger than your neighbors'!

 

You know who it makes richer? The ones at the top of the heap, whatever hierarchy that exists in the particular church you gave your money to. Plus this really sends a bad message that you don't have to work and god will just rain money down on you if you give enough of it to him. I always hated the tithing sermons and wanted to smack those hounding the congregation for money. Quite a nice business having a church is...

Wow. My favorite thing on that page was the picture of the dollar bill with the caption (Hyperlinked for donation, no doubt) "Give...because God says so."

[Seeking]

Basically, to be a good Christian, one has to be emaciated, so dirt poor they eat dirt, depressed, and schizophrenic--add homeless for good measure.

And yet, in at least the first 6 books of the Old Testament, God's entire promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, et al boiled down to (and I paraphrase):

 

Do what I say and you will

• get lots of money
  
  
• have tons of goats
  
  
• have lots of kids
  
  
• be healthy and long-lived
  
  
• get some awesome new land
  
  
• rule over people
  
  

 

Yet if you don't do what I say, you will

• lose all your money
  
  
• lose all your goats
  
  
• be barren
  
  
• be struck with diseases
  
  
• not get the cool land
  
  
• be mocked by other people groups
  
  

 

Seriously, that's what the whole Abrahamic covenant was. (I can provide references for those who want to know.) Prosperity gospel? Looks like it to me.

[agnosticator]

Read them again, but this time don't put the kingdom of heaven as being a place after you die. Read them with the kingdom of heaven is within type of view applicable to one's life now. They may have something to do with attachments.

 

I understand what you are saying, and some can be interpreted in this way. But verses like "woe to you who are rich, laugh, and are well fed" clearly refer to getting payback in that awful place for obtaining good things in this life. I don't think the new testament writers were meaning to be as allegorical as some of us would like them to be.

[NotBlinded]

Read them again, but this time don't put the kingdom of heaven as being a place after you die. Read them with the kingdom of heaven is within type of view applicable to one's life now. They may have something to do with attachments.

 

I understand what you are saying, and some can be interpreted in this way. But verses like "woe to you who are rich, laugh, and are well fed" clearly refer to getting payback in that awful place for obtaining good things in this life. I don't think the new testament writers were meaning to be as allegorical as some of us would like them to be.

You're probably right. We all know though that obtaining good things in life is wonderful as long as we have the right attitude.

 

I think that contradictions of the sayings of Jesus is evident that a lack of understanding happened and then things were later added to support the lack of understanding. Did that make any sense at all? OMG, I'm starting to talk like LNC!

[Abiyoyo]

I always hated the tithing sermons and wanted to smack those hounding the congregation for money. Quite a nice business having a church is...

 

Me too. I wonder how they missed this direction from Paul.

 

I Cor 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

 

[agnosticator]

I think that contradictions of the sayings of Jesus is evident that a lack of understanding happened and then things were later added to support the lack of understanding. Did that make any sense at all? OMG, I'm starting to talk like LNC!

 

It may be a case of too many cooks (or chefs for chefranden!) in the kitchen...

 

You'll know when you really start talking like LNC when you find yourself saying things like "Maybe you should go back and read my posts", "You have no basis for your assertions, as they are subjective opinions", then begin to worry!