Prayer Doesn't Work

[monkeygirl]

So my church is on this kick of having a members of the church praying at all times. Its called 24/7 prayer. For every hour several members sign up to go pray at this prayer center. Below are words in the Bible spoken by Jesus. Jesus is pretty clear on the subject. So when all there prayers go unanswered how is it they will feel like there 24/7 prayer was a success?! I know they are praying for Darfur and Aids and hunger all these huge things, so how do they dismiss Jesus' words without calling him a liar?

 

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

 

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

[florduh]

so how do they dismiss Jesus' words without calling him a liar?

Why don't you ask them? It's your church, isn't it? They owe some answers - call them on it, then quit going!

[ShallowByThyGame]

But, I thought Darfur and AIDS was just all part of God's plan!

[monkeygirl]

Well its actually the church I just left, they still send me emails non stop.

[florduh]

I'm lucky I didn't have e-mail when I quit the cult!

 

When you said "my church" I assumed you were still stuck there for some reason. Members who ask the hard questions don't last long - at least I didn't.

[Kyle]

But, I thought Darfur and AIDS was just all part of God's plan!

 

And who are we to question gawds gloooorious plan

[monkeygirl]

I did email my pastor months ago and asked him about 20 questions. He wanted to meet. He didn't answer 1 of the questions in the meeting even when I pushed him on some of the questions.

[Kyle]

That's because he can't answer you honestly. If he answered you, it might make him start thinking, and we know that thinking and being a good xian just doesn't mix

[Ro-bear]

1. God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is no.

2. Ask and ye shall receive, but ye may not receive what ye asked for. Some restrictions apply. Offer not valid with other promotions. Federal and state law may prohibit fulfillment of some prayers.

 

God's authors forgot the fine print.

[Deva]

Nothing fails like prayer. God's so-called promises in the Bible are totally empty and meaningless.

 

My parents are lifelong Christians. My father is a Baptist deacon. Yet at age 52 my brother died of leukemia. I am sure they are rationalizing like hell right now why God didn't elect to heal him in order to keep their faith.

 

I am sure glad I don't have to. I am so glad I am not a Christian now.

[Vixentrox]

Sound like this public praying could be in violation of:

 

Mathew 6:5

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

[mwc]

So my church is on this kick of having a members of the church praying at all times. Its called 24/7 prayer. For every hour several members sign up to go pray at this prayer center. Below are words in the Bible spoken by Jesus. Jesus is pretty clear on the subject. So when all there prayers go unanswered how is it they will feel like there 24/7 prayer was a success?! I know they are praying for Darfur and Aids and hunger all these huge things, so how do they dismiss Jesus' words without calling him a liar?

Because "jesus" is a big stupid liar.

 

Now, Paul, there's a guy that knows things about stuff.

 

2 Corinthians 12

 

12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself,

there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!

 

12:8

Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

 

12:9

And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness."

Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

 

12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

See? Paul asked for that thorn to go away 3 whole times but got denied. That means that everything "jesus" said was nothing but total shit and should be disregarded. Prayers are not answered except maybe sometimes at best. Paul was the best of the best even though "jesus" did say that prayers get answered if you really were a believer and that Paul's prayer was denied would imply he didn't have any faith...but we'll take Paul's side on this...because he's Paul! The best of the best of the best. You know. Paul!

 

Then there's stupid old James. We hate him too. Stupid James.

James

5:13 Is anyone among you suffering ? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful ? He is to sing praises.

 

5:14 Is anyone among you sick ? Then he must

call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord

;

 

5:15 and

the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick

, and the Lord will raise him up, and

if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.

What an ass. He's not fit to hold Paul's nutsack. Like the liar "jesus" he thinks you can actually get answered prayers. Not only can you get healed but forgiven at the same time. What a joke.

 

mwc

[par4dcourse]

Communicating telepathically with an unseen, ;unheard sky-spook doesn't alter the course of the world? Go figure.

[Max]

God answers all prayers, but sometimes the answer is no.

 

Exactamundo! And sometimes the answer isn't releif, but the strength to put up with the problem. So whatever happens, that's the answer to your prayer. One of the most foolproof rationalizations ever concocted.

 

But wouldn't it be way cool if it did work? Like Santa, only way bigger and year round...

[monkeygirl]

God answering a prayer with "no" is not scriptural. Read the passages I supplied in my original post and here is just one example.

 

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

[Deva]

God answering a prayer with "no" is not scriptural. Read the passages I supplied in my original post and here is just one example.

 

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

Matt. 21:22 - The real fault, as always. is with the human being. It must not have happened because they didn't believe enough.

[John09]

So when all there prayers go unanswered how is it they will feel like there 24/7 prayer was a success?! I know they are praying for Darfur and Aids and hunger all these huge things, so how do they dismiss Jesus' words without calling him a liar?

 

Someone missionary will show up at the church, say that he or she saw one kid get healed of Aids, and they will all believe that god answered their prayers.

 

Christians, in order to justify god for not answering prayers, always try to find some coincidental event to suggest god really did hear.

[HRDWarrior]

Someone missionary will show up at the church, say that he or she saw one kid get healed of Aids, and they will all believe that god answered their prayers.

 

Christians, in order to justify god for not answering prayers, always try to find some coincidental event to suggest god really did hear.

 

 

Exactly. I saw this happen so many times - that or when things don't go as requested, then god must be teaching them something, or trying to tell them something . It's sad, really, that they just can't accept that things are the way they are - for example, one I've personally seen is this: they lost their job due to health issues, and can't find another job. Unemployment is about to run out, and they've been applying like crazy to just about any job they can do with no results. The reasons they can't get the job is not because the economy is in the crapper and tons of other people are in the same situation, but because gawd is trying to tell them something, or they must have pissed him off.

 

Makes me mad to even hear that...so glad I don't attribute normal life circumstances to such reasons anymore.

[Vixentrox]

Funny that they'll brag because god answered a prayer about something minor like a parking spot or test grade but god is silent when it goes to world peace, starving children, regrowing limbs.....

[★ Citsonga ★]

So my church is on this kick of having a members of the church praying at all times. Its called 24/7 prayer. For every hour several members sign up to go pray at this prayer center. Below are words in the Bible spoken by Jesus. Jesus is pretty clear on the subject. So when all there prayers go unanswered how is it they will feel like there 24/7 prayer was a success?! I know they are praying for Darfur and Aids and hunger all these huge things, so how do they dismiss Jesus' words without calling him a liar?

 

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

 

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

 

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

 

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

 

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

 

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

 

The Christian perspective I was familiar with was that prayers are supposed to be offered in Jesus' name, which in turn is interpreted as being in accordance with his will, because if it's not his will, then what you want really isn't in his name. So, God is off the hook. There may be other rationalizations as well, but that's the one I was familiar with.

[ContraBardus]

The excuses for healing is always lame.

 

The truth of the matter is, if God truly answered prayers, then illness would have pretty much been eliminated by now.

 

Of course, there's always the token excuses. 'Most people don't believe enough.'

 

They can usually only come up with a handful of 'examples'. Always forgetting the more probable explanations. Illnesses often go into remission, just because someone feels better or recovers does not mean they are 'healed'. Anyone who is 'healed' of aids will still have the HIV virus. Other treatments are usually involved. The 'examples' are always of a rather convenient second hand nature, or of 'a family member'. There is oddly never any evidence to support the claims, and if there is, it is of a suspect nature. Easily doctored photos or 'video evidence' of people being 'healed' of diseases or issues that are easily faked, and lacking documentation to prove they ever had a problem in the first place.

 

If God can cure cancer, heal the blind, make the deaf heal, destroy viruses, why doesn't he ever remove more visible illnesses? Why not regrow an amputated leg, remove a cataract, remove warts, make burn scars disappear, regrow hair, make a mentally handicapped person recover, or heal severed or damaged nerve endings?

 

Christians pray for those things too. The truth of the matter is they wouldn't really be any more complex or difficult to cure than the same diseases that they claim they do heal. How is regrowing a severed finger somehow more complicated than 'removing' a tumor? It's not, plain and simple.

 

Prayer doesn't work, you get the same success ration praying to a rock or a jug of milk than if you substitute Jesus for either.

 

In fact, studies have shown that prayer -isn't- good for you. You actually do worse when people pray for you. Especially if you know about it.

 

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

 

Critics claim that Scientists fudge the results so people will lose faith in religion and believe in Science. Which is stupid beyond belief, because Science does not require belief or faith to work. It functions whether you think it does or not. There is also no advantage to hiding a technique or successful result. In fact, it would be good for the Scientist to prove something like that with successful and consistent results that are verified. That's a Nobel Prize level discovery.

 

Another argument is that Science is not designed to 'study the supernatural'. Which is also a line of apologetic Horse Shit.

 

Science is designed to study any and everything, no exceptions. If it can be observed in any manner Science is the tool to study it with. There's really no such thing as something 'outside' Science. There are many things studied in Science that are not immediately testable or readily and easily observable. Even supernatural phenomenon would leave evidence, some kind of trace of it's workings. So, the line that the Supernatural is 'outside' of Science or that Science 'is not made to test the Supernatural' is nothing but a complete lie. Science is made to test everything, there are no limits to the application of the Scientific Method to test anything, supernatural or not.

 

The issue with prayer the 'healing' kind or not, is that it's pretty much a catch 22.

 

There are three possible outcomes if you pray for something.

 

1. You get what you want immediately. Christian explanation: God did it. Honest explanation: Chance, or the one who prayed did something to increase the chances of the event to occur.

 

2. You get what you want, but you have to wait for a period of time before it occurs, asking God to grant it to you in the meantime. Friends tell you to be patient, and have faith. Christian explanation: You just had to really believe enough. Honest explanation: Even someone with the worst aim in the world will hit a bullseye given enough time and darts to do so. The extended period often gives the believer time to make an effort towards getting what they desire, and then forget that they took steps to make it happen. This is the most common type of 'answered prayer'. Often associated with events that would have eventually happened anyway.

 

3. You never get what you want. Christian explanation: It's not part of God's plan. You weren't meant to have it. Honest explanation: You wasted your time praying instead of taking action to get what you wanted, or chance was not in your favor. It's just that simple.

 

The one praying often conveniently forgets all the times it didn't work, and only remembers the successes. Rather like how psychics make their living. A psychic reading will usually end up with about 80-90% misses. However, the one getting read will notice the things they get correct a lot more. They forget about the incorrect guesses, and instead only focus on the things that were correct. Most often this type of prayer relates to an unlikely event, such as curing a terminal illness in later stages, winning the lottery, or having the Cubs win a World Series.

 

So, Prayer = not only bullshit, but studies show it actually does more harm than good.

[Max]

Ah, everyone's forgetting the "... but not my will but thine be done." Include that like a good little xtian, and you've already given god his escape pod.

 

Plus, there's Paul's report that he prayed three times for the "thorn in his flesh" to be removed, and god said no. That's what I always heard as the justification for "sometimes the answer is 'no'."

[Seeking]

they lost their job due to health issues, and can't find another job. Unemployment is about to run out, and they've been applying like crazy to just about any job they can do with no results. The reasons they can't get the job is not because the economy is in the crapper and tons of other people are in the same situation, but because gawd is trying to tell them something, or they must have pissed him off.

 

I heard this same thing at my parents' church a couple months ago. (I was visiting and had to go with them, as I'm too much of a coward to tell them the truth about my beliefs.) Their pastor commented on the sad state of the economy, and then said, "The reason people are going from bed to bed, relationship to relationship, or job to job isn't because of the economy, but because they aren't Christian."

 

He also said, "If God's word isn't effective, it's not because his word is ineffective, it's because our hearts are hard." Once again, it's all our fault! (Never mind the fact that God is the one who hardens hearts.)

 

Ugh!!