Guest aerie Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 New here! Hello to all! Recently de-converted, well...within the last year or so. Still struggling to get rid of "christian ideas" such as the following: As a believer, it was comforting to know/think that if evil people didn't get sufficient punishment in this lifetime, there would certainly be punishment in Hell. I have to remind myself of this when I think of child murderers, all the young women being abducted, raped, & killed these days, etc. I don't have that "comfort" any more. They will be wormfood right along with the rest of us. Not that I am one to condemn people, far from it. In fact, I have more compassion now than I ever did as a believer. And vice versa, with especially 'good' people. For ex: "there's a special place in heaven for ..." (fill in the blank w/whatver good deed). I guess I'm thinking about karma, not sure what to call this. I hope I'm making sense! Any thoughts? I am the only one that thinks about this form of "justice" (or lack thereof)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Question is, is eternal torture justice? In my opinion...no. I don't believe anyone could ever deserve eternal, never-ending punishment. That goes way beyond excessive. Perhaps there is some balancing act that will take place in some type of afterlife...who really knows. I don't know if there's such a thing as karma, but I'm kind of hoping so because I figure I've got a lot of good things eventually coming my way. Definitely had my share of shit lately and starting to feel like being kind and good and honest and nice doesn't get you fuck-all in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I don't 'get' the concept of eternal punishment, either. I also don't comprehend the alleged link between inflicting pain on someone, and 'justice'. The most important thing, in My opinion, is to neutralize the potential for harm by separating violent, high-risk individuals from the general population. Once that's done, I don't think it's necessary to go any further... That's bloodlust talking, not justice. Ultimately, the worst criminal in the entire world will die. When that happens, it's time to let go of the clamouring for justice, because there's no longer anything to judge, rehabilitate or punish. A more common response to the natural death of a vicious and hated criminal is "Damn! He got away!" No, he didn't: He's dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 The most important thing, in My opinion, is to neutralize the potential for harm by separating violent, high-risk individuals from the general population. Didn't they try that and now it's called "Australia"? I don't know if human beings are truly capable of dispensing true "justice"...whatever that even means... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Welcome to Earth "Where no good deed goes unpunished" I imagine that perfect justice would be a very complicated thing. However, the notion of "Hell" and it's punishments was never really created to merely punish the most awful among us. It was for those who dared rebel or reject the truths of the prevailing theocracy or religious mindset of the day. I don't know what's worse. No afterlife punishment for guys like Hitler and Stalin and serial killers, or the fact that such people could make a late "conversion to Christ" and end up in the penthouse suite in Heaven while perfectly nice people still go to the cosmic blast furnace in the basement. Either way you cut it, religion has always had a self-serving idea of eternal or external punishment. Justice is a point of view anyway; every crime has it's apologists; every good deed has it's critics. Wow, I'm cynical tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Nice post... Wow, I'm cynical tonight. I'm right with ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I'm pretty well convinced that there is no "afterlife." Life is a function of the body/mind and when the brain ceases to function, so does life and conciousness. So, with that in mind, whatever is done will be done here on earth or not at all. The first priority is protection of everyone - our safety. The second priority should be prevention of recidivism. Not allowing a repeat of the same crime. A distant third is revenge. We can't help but feel vindicated when the person who did us wrong is "punished." That, however should not be the sole motivation, and the principle of avoiding "cruel and inhuman" punishments is a good one. I see nothing wrong in general with the present justice system, although I would perhaps "tweak" it a bit. I personally thing capital punishment should be considered cruel and unusual, but I'll admit it's effective. In reality, however, life in prison is just as effective provided it is carried out in an effective mannner. Quite frankly, our justice system does not really consider heaven or hell. It just exists to protect society. And that's how it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autonomous Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 The world is unfair. You just have to get used to that. A somewhat blunt answer but it's the one I've found. I never thought hell was just anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 The world is unfair. You just have to get used to that. Shit happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 The most important thing, in My opinion, is to neutralize the potential for harm by separating violent, high-risk individuals from the general population. Didn't they try that and now it's called "Australia"? I don't know if human beings are truly capable of dispensing true "justice"...whatever that even means... Thanks Mark for the belly laugh then...yes we Aussies are still trying to find a sense of culture and class. We are after all ex-convicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Aerie, welcome to Ex-C! Interesting subject. My idea of true justice would be to restore what the criminal had taken-- as if the event had never occurred. This is clearly impossible. Dead bodies don't come back and memories remain. Hell is retribution, not justice. The criminal, and even some fine upstanding people who simply don't believe in Jesus, are subjected to an eternity of torture with no possibility of rehabilitation, and no second chances. I cannot comprehend how Christians think this is justice. Justice is a human concept for human societies. It does not exist outside of the word "justice". What you are describing is, trust me, not karma, and its probably better not to bring that (yet another concept!) into this whole question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 The world is unfair. You just have to get used to that. A somewhat blunt answer but it's the one I've found. I never thought hell was just anyway. With respect to nature, I agree wholeheartedly. With respect to human societies, if this is true, it should be something we work hard to change. Human rules are what we make them. To the extent that the justice system seems random or unfair (arresting, convicting and punishing the innocent with callous disregard), it should be held accountable. Compared with the types of trials that were held in the past, and the evidence that was used to determine guilt or innocence, we've made great progress. Unfairness does exist, and that concerns all of us. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I don't find eternal torture for a finite crime just punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheAmberShow Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Now I see it as way more black and white: a Murderer uses a Knife to disrupt the molecules that make up the organism called Child to die. He may or may not get caught, but there is no Karma making sure he does or does not, and in the grand scheme of the universe, he's done nothing worse than kick dust around. I'm able, without the bonds of religion, to see the science experience of it. The human experience, of course, is that he's done something wrong, as a human, and we, as fellow humans, exercise what justice we have on that person, depending on the culture and circumstances surrounding both the Murder and the Child. I'm sorry if that's not very clear (I need coffee!) but my point is that when someone murders a child, say, it isn't anything but The Way Things Are. Yes, it's terrible and heartwrenching to us as fellow humans, but I can see it from a scientific standpoint, too, and that comforts me way more than thinking about Heaven or Hell ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheAmberShow Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Now I see it as way more black and white: a Murderer uses a Knife to disrupt the molecules that make up the organism called Child causing it to die. He may or may not get caught, but there is no Karma making sure he does or does not, and in the grand scheme of the universe, he's done nothing worse than kick dust around. I'm able, without the bonds of religion, to see the science experience of it. The human experience, of course, is that he's done something wrong, as a human, and we, as fellow humans, exercise what justice we have on that person, depending on the culture and circumstances surrounding both the Murder and the Child. I'm sorry if that's not very clear (I need coffee!) but my point is that when someone murders a child, say, it isn't anything but The Way Things Are. Yes, it's terrible and heartwrenching to us as fellow humans, but I can see it from a scientific standpoint, too, and that comforts me way more than thinking about Heaven or Hell ever did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aerie Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I don't like the idea of "eternal" justice either. Something I hadn't thought about! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aerie Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Thanx for all the answers. I'm still reading but amazed at everyone's different and similar opinions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 I think of it this way, no body names their kid after bad characters. If you lived a bad life (mean to people), your legacy either is that of a villain or it dies off once you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Punishment in this life - well, obviously you can get as many different opinions as there are people willing to share. Justice beyond this life? Not something I feel like I'm missing out on. For example, I've always enjoyed working more with animals than humans - so I work and volunteer through animal rescues and such - but according to the christians at least that I knew, while that is nice, it's not something that earns any brownie points. But a mass murderer can "truly confess" after doing horrendous crimes and be forgiven? That never did set well with me, even as a christian, while all my "good deads" meant nothing because they weren't for humans. And as for karma - I've seen it come around, sometimes after I was long gone from that particular situation, but there is an element of it in this world. As for the rest of it, I will quote a friend of mine: "Life sucks, then you die" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 The human experience, of course, is that he's done something wrong, as a human, and we, as fellow humans, exercise what justice we have on that person, depending on the culture and circumstances surrounding both the Murder and the Child. I still think of the goal of justice as ultimately the protection of ourselves, loved ones, and everyone else (society). We have romanticized it, glorified it, and transformed it to make it a deterrent to crime, but that too has the ultimate goal of protecting society (whether or not it actually works that way). The punishment should fit the crime, but the significance of the crime may be different under different circumstances. Stealing a horse when that could mean death for the horse owner (as in the Wild West) would warrant a more severe punishment than if it was a "pet." The Bible tried to establish universal punishments for crimes, and absolute standards for behavior, but life is sometiems a lot messier than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I was never taught that Hell is where "bad people" go. That's where non-believers went. Believers went to heaven- if they believed exactly the right thing in exactly the correct manner and jumped through all necessary hoops (but none of the decoy hoops that would piss off Jesus). Really had nothing to do with 'good' or 'bad' in any functional sense. So I've really never had any concept of 'divine justice'- even as a young Christian. The whole thing, as I was taught, really had nothing to do with love, justice, morality, or anything of the sort... just a bunch of arcane rules that had to be properly deciphered and followed to the letter- else you'd burn for all eternity. Welcome to Earth "Where no good deed goes unpunished" I imagine that perfect justice would be a very complicated thing. However, the notion of "Hell" and it's punishments was never really created to merely punish the most awful among us. It was for those who dared rebel or reject the truths of the prevailing theocracy or religious mindset of the day. I don't know what's worse. No afterlife punishment for guys like Hitler and Stalin and serial killers, or the fact that such people could make a late "conversion to Christ" and end up in the penthouse suite in Heaven while perfectly nice people still go to the cosmic blast furnace in the basement. Either way you cut it, religion has always had a self-serving idea of eternal or external punishment. Justice is a point of view anyway; every crime has it's apologists; every good deed has it's critics. Wow, I'm cynical tonight. That's a great quote. I'm gonna steal it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Justice is a point of view anyway; every crime has it's apologists; every good deed has it's critics. Wow, I'm cynical tonight. That's a great quote. I'm gonna steal it. Me too! Fantastic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShallowByThyGame Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 The problem with karma, or Hell, is that you presume that the Universe will take care of itself. It can be comforting because there's a lot of crap in this world, and many people suffer needlessly. But this is false. If you want justice you have to be willing to fight for it yourself. What that means is up to you of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 The problem with karma, or Hell, is that you presume that the Universe will take care of itself. It can be comforting because there's a lot of crap in this world, and many people suffer needlessly. But this is false. If you want justice you have to be willing to fight for it yourself. What that means is up to you of course. The universe does take care of itself, doesn't it? Regardless of your personal suffering or not. Your last sentence is right - its always what it means is up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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