The second coming

[Guest alexhorseman]

Frequently, I hear people debate back and forth regarding when the second coming is supposed to occur. Anti-christians claim that Jesus's return was supposed to happen within the lifetimes of his followers, while Christians claim that all the references to time regarding Jesus's return are expressed that way because time, to the lord, is very different than our time. Since he is eternal, a day to him is a lifetime to us.

 

So I put this question to the Christians... Let's suppose that you're right, and God's time isn't our time. Then why would he communicate it to us in that way? Wouldn't he KNOW that by telling us the end is at hand and we are in the last days, that we would take that to mean REALLY SOON? Certainly within his follower's lifetime. Why would he tell us soon, when he really means in more than 1900 years? The only reasons _I_ can think of are 1) he's incompetent and didn't realize we'd understand a different time scenario or 2) he knew we'd take it as something different and therefore was being deceptive... both qualities are rather un-godlike.

 

So what is it then, Christians? Or is there any indication in his words that he really DID mean in excess of 1900 years?

 

Alex

[Eponymic]

God was on a bender and wanted to show the Angels how much he could make us squirm. Plus he had a bet with Gabriel that if he told us the end was nigh that we'd look like little mice from up in the clouds when we scurried around from the panic. God won that bet.

[thomas]

Wouldn't he KNOW that by telling us the end is at hand and we are in the last days, that we would take that to mean REALLY SOON? Certainly within his follower's lifetime. Why would he tell us soon, when he really means in more than 1900 years?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Because his ways are higher than our ways. Else he wouldn't be God

[thomas]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

By the way, the Bible is full of examples where God says something to his people, his people gets some expectations, but the fulfilment does not happen the way people expect.

 

For example, the Jews went out of Egypt expecting to enter the promised land. But they didn't. According to the bible they died in the dessert, and only their children could enter.

 

Also the captivity in Babylon was against the expectations.

And the Messiah (given that it was Jesus) was also very different than expected.

And now the second comming.

 

Does the Christian God have a serious communication problem?

[EdwardAbbey]

Frequently, I hear people debate back and forth regarding when the second coming is supposed to occur. Anti-christians claim that Jesus's return was supposed to happen within the lifetimes of his followers, while Christians claim that all the references to time regarding Jesus's return are expressed that way because time, to the lord, is very different than our time. Since he is eternal, a day to him is a lifetime to us.

 

So what is it then, Christians? Or is there any indication in his words that he really DID mean in excess of 1900 years?

 

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If there were some guy who lived thousands of years ago who was going around spreading good will to his fellow human beings it certainly was not the biblical Jesus. He is nothing more than a recreation of past mythological pagan godmen invented for the purpose of controlling the minds of the ignorant.

[Antlerman]

Perhaps it was spoken in the sense of Obi Wan Kenobi, telling young Skywalker that Darth Vader killed his father. "It is the truth, from a certain point of view." "I am coming quickly" maybe means sometime before the next 307 trillion universes have been created and destroyed?

 

Another possiblity is maybe he didn't mean "returning"?

[Checkmate]

Perhaps it was spoken in the sense of Obi Wan Kenobi, telling young Skywalker that Darth Vader killed his father.  "It is the truth, from a certain point of view."  "I am coming quickly" maybe means sometime before the next 307 trillion universes have been created and destroyed?

 

Another possiblity is maybe he didn't mean "returning"?

Revelation 22:20 "He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am CUMING quickly." Amen. Even so, CUM Lord Jesus!"

[Mr. Neil]

Let's suppose that you're right, and God's time isn't our time. Then why would he communicate it to us in that way? Wouldn't he KNOW that by telling us the end is at hand and we are in the last days, that we would take that to mean REALLY SOON? Certainly within his follower's lifetime.

Hey, don't forget about divine revelation. According to the Bible, all things of God are revealed to those who are born again, so therefore, all born again Christians should be on the same page, because they've all had the same revelation. Yet how many of them use this same argument? Arguments about the timeliness of Jesus' return vary from apologist to apologist.

 

When a writer uses the word quickly, he has to contextualize the word to put it into a perspective that the reader can understand. For example, when a biology text book says something like "The Permian extinction came quickly", the writer is talking about something that took a number of centuries to occur, but since the author is making reference within the context of Earth history, the event in question is relatively quick.

 

If a writer does not contextualize, then the reader will contextualize the statement relative to the task being done or within the span of the reader's lifetime. For example, If I say I'll return from a business trip rather quickly, quickly might mean a couple of days as opposed to a week.

 

Second comings are a little harder to gauge, but one would certainly gauge such a statement within the context of his own lifespan. By today's standards, a decade might be pushing it as far as a quick return is concerned. Considering this was said 2000 years ago, the Christians have an even bigger problem, because the people Jesus supposedly told this to only lived an average of forty years or so. If someone told me they were coming back quickly, I'd expect a couple seasons, or at the most, a year or two.

 

But unfortunately for the Christians, Jesus did contextualize, and in Matthew 16:28, Jesus states clearly that there are some standing here (i.e., before him at that exact moment in time) that would not see death before the second coming of the son of God.

 

So Jesus was making his statement within the context of a human lifespan. And even worse, he told them that some of them would not die before his second coming. Call it a hunch, but I'm fairly certain that they'd all be dead by now.

[Guest Heavenly Deceit]

Jesus already came back, his name was Hitler.

[Eponymic]

Jesus already came back, his name was Hitler.

 

Actually he was Hitler's secret gay boyfriend.

[Guest alexhorseman]

So, no comments from our Christian friends yet? This is rather disappointing. Surely, they have a take as to why this seems to be such an extreme inconsistency. Are we interpreting the Bible wrong? Surely, that must be it... so put it right for us... what was Jesus REALLY referring to when he stated that some of those standing there would not have seen death before the second coming? What time frame did he really mean when he said the end days were at hand?

 

Alex

[scotter]

.

..and in Matthew 16:28, Jesus states clearly that there are some standing here  (i.e., before him at that exact moment in time) that would not see death before the second coming of the son of God.

 

So Jesus was making his statement within the context of a human lifespan. And even worse, he told them that some of them would not die before his second coming.

 

Christian apologetics have two ways to work on this: “generation” – literally or symbolically.

 

Not too long ago Heimdall posted about The Legend of Wandering Jew. It is said that the Wandering Jew will be living until the day of 2nd Return, and he will be redeemed. Thus Jesus’s prophecy did not fail, as the Wandering Jew hasn’t seen death yet.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=33&letter=W

 

Another way to work around “generation” is:

 

“Jesus likens Israel unto a "fig tree" in Matthew 24:32-34, and He likens the restoration of Israel unto a fig tree putting forth leaves. He said that He would return during the same generation which witnesses Israel putting forth leaves as a nation. We are living in that generation! There are some four million Jews living in Palestine today. We have seen the Jews return to Palestine, and we have seen the nation of Israel prosper. Friend, there's a reason for all of this: the Lord Jesus Christ is coming soon!”

Paragraph quoted from a Christian URL: http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/second.html

[Ouroboros]

What will they say if it take another 10,000 years, and nothing happens? "A day is like 10,000 years for the Lord". And next will be "A day is like a trillion billion cazillion years." and so on.

 

But wait... maybe Jesus mean the second coming as the day when he was resurrected from the grave! So he came the second time already, and it's all over, and we all went to Hell. Only the good people went to Heaven, but we have no clue about it!

 

Anyho, since I'm not convinced Jesus even existed the first time, I'm more curious to know when he's coming the first time instead.

[Amanda]

So, no comments from our Christian friends yet? This is rather disappointing. Surely, they have a take as to why this seems to be such an extreme inconsistency. Are we interpreting the Bible wrong? Surely, that must be it... so put it right for us... what was Jesus REALLY referring to when he stated that some of those standing there would not have seen death before the second coming? What time frame did he really mean when he said the end days were at hand?

 

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Alex, good question... and we ALL know that many people that follow Jesus's teachings will have a different perspective. IMO, FWIW, I think that Jesus did come back before those people died... his Spirit, in their hearts. Upon Jesus's death, he was forsaken, left behind, divided and distributed intensely among us all for the purpose of bringing what is 'sacred' to the forefront.

 

It is my beliefs that when Jesus comes back in a physical body again, it will be in a corporate body. We will ALL be of one mind, let the mind of Christ be in you. Each of us will be the many members of his body... some the eyes, some the mouth... of course all metaphorically speaking. We've been sealed with the Holy Spirit till the day of the redemption, held ransom in each one of us, till we collectively form this body of the Christ nature... then Christ is redeemed as a whole physical body again.

 

It says in the Bible if we should look to one person being the return of the Christ, we are deceived, Matthew 24:23. Christ will come down in a cloud, again metaphorically speaking. We are the cloud, when we are ALL so full of the Christ nature, when we are each droplets so full of the 'living' water that we thirst no more... then the Christ nature sits in us, and rules through us in our respectfully unique expression of it.

 

Alex... I know... blah, blah, blah... I disappointed you anyway?

BTW, FWIW... I see a lot of the Christ nature here... many among people who have the label Atheist and different other labels... as we know them by their actions, what comes out of their mouth... not what label they choose. IMHO.

[EdwardAbbey]

Frequently, I hear people debate back and forth regarding when the second coming is supposed to occur. Anti-christians claim that Jesus's return was supposed to happen within the lifetimes of his followers, while Christians claim that all the references to time regarding Jesus's return are expressed that way because time, to the lord, is very different than our time. Since he is eternal, a day to him is a lifetime to us.

 

So I put this question to the Christians... Let's suppose that you're right, and God's time isn't our time. Then why would he communicate it to us in that way? Wouldn't he KNOW that by telling us the end is at hand and we are in the last days, that we would take that to mean REALLY SOON? Certainly within his follower's lifetime. Why would he tell us soon, when he really means in more than 1900 years? The only reasons _I_ can think of are 1) he's incompetent and didn't realize we'd understand a different time scenario or 2) he knew we'd take it as something different and therefore was being deceptive... both qualities are rather un-godlike.

 

So what is it then, Christians? Or is there any indication in his words that he really DID mean in excess of 1900 years?

 

Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm amazed at that if Jesus is truly a real literal person who said He was going to return but after no sign of His return after thousands of years, hasn't it ever dawned on these mindless believers that Jesus changed His mind and is not going to ever return? either that or it's just one big hoax that only ignorance can fall for?

 

So get a grip all you believers, Jesus isn't coming back, so get over it already eh?

[NimbusBirdMgp]

But unfortunately for the Christians, Jesus did contextualize, and in Matthew 16:28, Jesus states clearly that there are some standing here (i.e., before him at that exact moment in time) that would not see death before the second coming of the son of God.

 

So Jesus was making his statement within the context of a human lifespan.  And even worse, he told them that some of them would not die before his second coming.  Call it a hunch, but I'm fairly certain that they'd all be dead by now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've never noticed this before. Seems to be that Christianity over looks such things, when they are trying to make the scriptures fit with their own ideas of things. That already seems to indicate that second coming should had been way back then. And if not. Goes to show the inconsistancies and contradictions of the Bible.

[Eccles1:2]

It's things like this which motivated the Catholics to:

a ) excise great chunks of scripture which would've subverted their authorised worldview;

b ) keep bibles in Latin and away from the common man;

c ) imbue believers with such feelings of guilt and terror that they'd keep coming back to kiss the ring and receive absolution;

d ) insist on interpreting the bible on behalf of everybody else.

 

Guess what? Fundies are doing it all over again. They:

a ) ignore the Nag Hammadi library and comparative Ancient Near Eastern texts such as those of the Hittites;

b ) often keep bibles in incomprehensible 17th century English;

c ) use natural fears about terrorism and crime to demonise anything which doesn't fit in a double-breasted suit and loafers (or floral print for the ladies);

d ) insist on interpreting the bible on behalf of everybody else, even when such interpretation makes a convoluted jumble of something which appeared to read quite straightforwardly.