BuddhistCommunist Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Just for those unfamiliar with the celts, heres an introduction. The Celtic people never wrote their stories down, the relied on the druids and bards to memerize and tell or sing these tales. When Saint Patrick came to Ireland, he brought christianity with him. But, He and Many monks took the time to record the celtic tales and kept them in record. Now compared to what happened to the Mayans Aztecs, and other native americans, I would say Saint Patrick was fairly respectable. The preists of the new world burned the native american peoples books, But Saint Patrick and his monks recorded the beliefs of the Celts. If he wouldn't have, Celtic history might be lost to us today. If Christianity would have arrived later, A more hardcore fundie probably would have come instead and destroyed their history. Whats your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyFeline Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 He was still responsible for the deaths of hundreds, even thousands, of Celts. To me, nothing is worth sacrificing that many innocent lives, all in the name of some petty god. He wouldn't have needed to record the books, if he and his ilk hadn't been so busy exterminating the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 Very true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Well, thats that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 He was still responsible for the deaths of hundreds, even thousands, of Celts. To me, nothing is worth sacrificing that many innocent lives, all in the name of some petty god. He wouldn't have needed to record the books, if he and his ilk hadn't been so busy exterminating the people. As one of Scottish blood I now have renewed reason to hate Christianity and the Catholic church - thanks! aaargh! trashy Clan Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 If he wouldn't have, Celtic history might be lost to us today. If Christianity would have arrived later, A more hardcore fundie probably would have come instead and destroyed their history. Whats your opinion? With St. Patrick and the christianization of Ireland, it very important to remember that at the time Roman Catholicism was the norm. While Patrick was christian, he was only nominally a roman (he came from a hick province in england). As such, while he did bring the theology of christ, he did not bring the culture of Rome. This means that the transition was not nearly as bad as that seen in other cultures that were assimilated. Indeed, the "Celtic Church" as it was known, fluished for quite some time before the Catholic orthodoxy shut them down and forced them to conform to Roman Catholic forms. So was it good or bad? Eh, could go either way. Personally, I'm more upset about the cultural changes that were forced upon them than the philosophy that Patrick brought them. Up until then, christianity and the older celtic traditions were able to blend in a very peaceful manner. I don't recall there being alot of blood shed involved in the initial transition from the research I did in college. There was a lot of fighting when the Roman Catholics tried to move in, but up until then it was a "bloodless revolution" you might say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Then there was the English Plantation and William of Orange who eventually came in and mopped up. They've been at it ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Then there was the English Plantation and William of Orange who eventually came in and mopped up. They've been at it ever since. Exactly trashy. There were very few if any clashes between Druidism and christianity. W/out the culture institutions to back it up, the two blended into Celtic Christianity. It wasn't until others from the "Roman" church showed up that things went to shit. I was lucky enough to go to school for a bit in Ireland while doing research for my thesis on Celtic Christianty. Definitely recommend it to anyone who has the chance... (Ireland not christianity... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead_hobbit Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 The Native Americans had books before our ancestors pillaged this continent? This was something I was unaware of. Could you cite some sources? Most Natives I know had their traditions passed down orally through the ages, not through written form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dragonblade Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 "Saint" Patrick was a witch hunter. That does not hold well with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 As a Scot American, I will have to weigh in on this one. Although Patrick is a Saint of the Roman Catholic Church, he did not belong to that denomination. At the time Patrick was born and lived, it was the Celtic Church that held sway over Britain. The Celtic Church was much more accommodating to native beliefs than was the Catholic Church and consequently did not (as the Catholic Church would have) deny the efforts of the (Irish born) monks to record their old myths, legends and oral histories (my favorite is that of Cu Chu Lain, who slew 12 full grown Warrior Heros, setting their heads on the border of his kingdom, when he was only 12 years old) of the Irish peoples. My question is, "once the Catholic Church subsumed the Celtic Church, how were these records perserved from the bonfires of the ignorant?" - Heimdall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 The Native Americans had books before our ancestors pillaged this continent? This was something I was unaware of. Could you cite some sources? Most Natives I know had their traditions passed down orally through the ages, not through written form. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes the Aztecs and Mayans had books which were burned up hundreds of years ago... save mabey ten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 LadyFeline hit this one on the head, Patrick butchered the druids nicely... Also, I'm not *positive* on this, but I'm quite sure he didn't faithfully copy down the legends... he made them Christian, turning the fire goddess Bridgit into St. Bridgit for example. So his contribution is, well, shit. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddhistCommunist Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 Well I study alot of Mythology so I think this is more accurate. He didn't turn Brigid into Saint Brigit, Saint Brigit was a former priestess of Brigid who could fed the people and animals of the village without running out of Food. Which was also a supposed power of Brigid, I.E. She becomes a saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indoctrinated Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Interesting that this thread should come up now. As a Brit I am just starting to do some reading on this period in the history of my native islands. I was surprised that some have said that Patrick was responsible for large scale slaughter of pagans. My impression so far from my reading is that Patrick was himself Romano-Celtic and that the Celts were generally an argumentative, strongminded lot not averse to getting physical. So that he was probably at least no worse than his fellow Celts, Christian or non-Christian. As others have said, my impression is that Christianity originally came to these Isles via individual Christians, facilitated by the Roman imperial expansion, and that it was assimilated into Celtic culture rather than overwhelmed it. Only later after Christianity had been co-opted by the Roman establishment did the Roman Church impose its version of the religion. The book I read said that Celtic Christians such as Pelagius, who was labelled a heretic, saw themselves as defending the traditional faith against such doctrinal innovators as Augustine (inventor of original sin)! As they say, history is written by the winners and Celtic Christianity as well as Celtic Paganism lost! Does anyone have any sources or recommended reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Whats your opinion? You might want to ask my beloved Islington that question (as she follows the path of the Celtic faith herself) whenever she drops back in here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I have to agree. Nowhere in any of my research did it suggest their was a violent conversion of the Celts until the Roman Catholics showed up and then it was christian vs christian violence for the most part. Does anyone claiming "mass slaughters" in Ireland have documentations to back that up? Honestly curious here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightflight Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I read somewhere that there were no Celtic Xtian martyrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 I read somewhere that there were no Celtic Xtian martyrs. That is my understanding as well Nightflight. Indeed, there was a tradition amongst the Celtic Monks of "Green Martyrs". These were monks who forsook the saftey of the monestary to become hermits in the wilds of Ireland (harking in many ways back to the older druidic traditions). Back to the main topic: the Celtic illuminators were one of the main reasons we have ANY writings from before the dark ages (celtic or otherwise). So all and all, yes, I would say Patrick had a postive effect on western civilization, even if I don't subscribe to the teachings he espoused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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