Don't Want To Be Forgiven

[Franko47]

That's right. I don't want some of my sins "forgiven". Nope. Sorry.

 

 

I need some of my guilt.

 

 

When I was fifteen, me and some friends stole some tools (mostly generic and relatively worthless) from the caretaker's toolbox at this church across the street from our "grocery store hangout".

 

One day, after sitting on the steps of the church downing our soda pops and jelly donuts, my wallet slipped out of my pocket, containing some significant birthday money given to me by my grandparents. Anyway, the caretaker of the church found it and phoned our home. I went to see him the next day. He was an elderly and gentle fellow, real nice, and refused any kind of monetary reward. I felt a bit humbled. Before I left, I told him that some of my friends had stolen some of his tools from the tool shed out back. He nodded, as if realizing that I was also implicating myself in the matter, and told me that they weren't worth much and had easily replaced them. With a wink he showed me the door, as if he realized that I was sincerely humbled by this incident and maybe the better for it.

 

I made it clear from then on to my buddies that we weren't to give the old man any more grief ever again, or I would personally kick the **** out of them. I made it convincing.

 

I know the old fellow forgave me. He was kind and laid back. I have no idea what his personal beliefs were, nor do I care. He was everything that a religious person should be.

 

I thought later on about praying to Jesus to forgive me. I had trouble doing so. I didn't want to forget the incident; I didn't want to be forgiven. I wanted to always remember my wrongdoing in this affair; I didn't want the board rubbed clean and forgotten.

 

So I never did. I'm glad, to. I plan to wear the guilt of this wrongdoing for the rest of my days. Anybody who rips off a kind and innocent person is a super-duper-jerk who should be pissed on. If there is a final judgement up in the clouds, I will still refuses forgiveness for this act. I need to always remember the profound effect it had on me, and in a way, diverted me from slipping into flippant juvenile habits at that time.

 

Even if I'm walking the streets of heaven a million years from now, and I meet this old man caretaker dude, I will apologize once again. He'll likely find it amusing. He will still forgive me, he was a kind person. I will thank him for his forgiveness. And that will be all.

 

Sorry, but this affair isn't really any of your business, Mr. Lord. It's a private matter. Don't need a wave of your magic wand, and *poof* the whole incident is forgotten. Sorry, El Jesus, but it's really none of your business.

 

Again, a private matter between two human beings that give a shit about who they are. Not about having our responsibilities magically wiped away by kneeling before some super-entity who somehow feels more qualified about right and wrong than myself.

 

You see, that's a big part of the problem with Gods. The day you wake up and realize that you're more qualified to decide what's best than they are. Throughout religion, Gods are always frivolous. Destroy whole kingdoms with a wave of a hand; but incinerate someone for losing their virginity while wearing the wrong colored hat. You can have your silly Gods, and their ridiculous practices.

 

Thanks for listening, and feel free to comment on any aspects of this.

[Shyone]

That's right. I don't want some of my sins "forgiven". Nope. Sorry.

 

 

You see, that's a big part of the problem with Gods. The day you wake up and realize that you're more qualified to decide what's best than they are. Throughout religion, Gods are always frivolous. Destroy whole kingdoms with a wave of a hand; but incinerate someone for losing their virginity while wearing the wrong colored hat. You can have your silly Gods, and their ridiculous practices.

 

Thanks for listening, and feel free to comment on any aspects of this.

That was an incredible story, and I can empathize. It is from such lessons that I learned not to steal and to be kind to people even if I don't know them personally.

 

Forgiveness is human. It must be earned from the person who has been wronged, not from a deity. Anyone asking forgiveness from a deity without first earning the forgiveness of the person wronged is just assuaging their guilt without deserving forgiveness, and without acknowledging their responsibility to society.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Sorry, but this affair isn't really any of your business, Mr. Lord. It's a private matter. Don't need a wave of your magic wand, and *poof* the whole incident is forgotten. Sorry, El Jesus, but it's really none of your business.

 

Again, a private matter between two human beings that give a shit about who they are. Not about having our responsibilities magically wiped away by kneeling before some super-entity who somehow feels more qualified about right and wrong than myself.

 

 

You know, this really makes a lot of sense. It would be healthier if more people reacted to guilt the way you did in your story.

 

In my case, I know that there have been times when, though I learned something from guilt like you did here, I also continued to beat myself up over the incident again and again in an unhealthy way, even after apologizing to and being forgiven by the person wronged. For some people, feeling forgiven can sometimes stop that sort of self-abuse and is at least useful in that sense.

 

I appreciate the integrity you show here, though, and I can understand how your approach works well for you.

[SEEtheScorn]

That is a wonderful story with a great point to it. Thanks for sharing.

 

I think you're absolutely right, as are the comments.

 

This is why I think it's wrong to convince people who keep apologizing to God for something wrong and "just don't feel forgiven" that they just need to "accept that they're forgiven and move on." There's a reason they still feel guilty.

 

Anyone remember the recent episode of House when Chase went in for confession? The priest wouldn't forgive him and said he had to do the right thing. Although I'm still debating whether or not what he did was necessarily wrong, I'll hold opinion on that until later, I think there was a point made there. He just wanted forgiveness so he could stop feeling guilty over what he did. Not so that it could all be made right. Too many people seek a feeling of forgiveness, rather than actually absolution, learning from the mistake.

 

Like Shyone said, forgiveness shouldn't be sought from the third party, Deity. It should be sought from the one transgressed against. And if that person doesn't forgive? Well, that person has a right now to!

 

A healthy dose of guilt is a good thing.

 

An unhealthy dose, is not good though. The balance is difficult to find.

[oddbird1963]

That was an incredible story!

 

Using your personal culpability as a motivator for future compassionate and ethical behavior? Brilliant!!

 

That was a heartwarming post!

 

Over the years, my concept of forgiveness has simplified. Now that I am a non-theist, it is real simple. Forgiveness is just letting it go. When two people have gotten over it and decided not to continue a conflict they have forgiven one another.

 

I'm not sure where the idea of restitution and reparation comes in, except that the faculty of empathy, at some point, can kick in and make us realize we might have hurt someone. We see through the other person's eyes. Thus, paying the person for his loss. We do something extra to "make up" for the inconvenience or hurt. And we may simply do some kind gestures to demonstrate our sincerity in the matter.

 

It really is a beautiful, very human and natural process. No god needed. No bloody sacrifice of a ram, a dove or an incarnated deity required.

 

I think religionists too often think of sin as a "force" or a substance that is out there like crude oil in the ocean or smog in the air. The more you "sin" - offend god, offend your neighbor, the more "gunk" get thrown out there. Only a super deity with the power to forgive can clear the air or purify the waters, so to speak.

 

How did we let this god-idea in to complicate things?

 

Forgiveness IS between people. A deity is not necessary to remove or clean up anything. Only people can remove resentment or hatred. They do this through developing empathy and letting go.

[Franko47]

That is a wonderful story with a great point to it. Thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

Like Shyone said, forgiveness shouldn't be sought from the third party, Deity. It should be sought from the one transgressed against. And if that person doesn't forgive? Well, that person has a right now to!

 

A healthy dose of guilt is a good thing.

 

An unhealthy dose, is not good though. The balance is difficult to find.

 

 

I agree; all too often some people get burdened down by their guilt. Sometimes they are unsure as to whether they need to "change" or "apologize" or unsure where they may stand with people they may have wronged. It took one friend of mine three or four years of reflection to finally realize that he had indeed wronged his wife in many ways, and that's why she divorced him. Alas, he didn't feel compelled to go to her though, she had remarried and made it clear that she wanted no further contact with him (no kids involved).

 

Thanks so much for your comments. This is really the first forum I've ever been at where we can sometimes get a bit deep without fear of a little ridicule. We all harbour a mixed bag of feelings about this issue, and I'm not saying there's a definite "doctrine" about how to handle it.

 

Some people will carry their guilt stoically, while others want to vent it all out.

[The-Captain]

Thank you. I've never heard anyone else say something like this but it is exactly how I've always felt. Atonement, not forgiveness is far better to me. It cheapens and lessens our actions when we feel we can be forgiven for them, and for myself I never actually felt forgiven.

[qec]

What a wonderful thing to share Frank, it was so inspiring.