Fissures In The Faith? Question From Craig's Forums

[R. S. Martin]

This young Christian apparently has done his homework and is asking for help. He posted a thread knowledge of God? in William Lane Craig's forums. He summarizes Craig's and Alvin Plantinga's views on "feeling" God's presence, along with some other ideas from the evangelical literature.

 

He ends his long post with this paragraph:

 

What makes this particularly troubling is the fact (I think it is a fact) that many, perhaps most, Christians feel this way. Chesterton said once that when it comes to things like this you can deny that God exists, as atheists do, or you can deny the present union between God and man, as Christians do. But the problem still remains. I don't have any idea what the answer is.

 

I am forever looking for possible fissures in the religious superstructure. To see this kind of question in a sophisticated young thinker gives me hope. What often happens is that they find a bandaid to plaster over the fissure in their faith. But eventually, so I feel convinced, the forces of time will be too strong for the bandaids to hold.

[Guest end3]

This young Christian apparently has done his homework and is asking for help. He posted a thread knowledge of God? in William Lane Craig's forums. He summarizes Craig's and Alvin Plantinga's views on "feeling" God's presence, along with some other ideas from the evangelical literature.

 

He ends his long post with this paragraph:

 

What makes this particularly troubling is the fact (I think it is a fact) that many, perhaps most, Christians feel this way. Chesterton said once that when it comes to things like this you can deny that God exists, as atheists do, or you can deny the present union between God and man, as Christians do. But the problem still remains. I don't have any idea what the answer is.

 

I am forever looking for possible fissures in the religious superstructure. To see this kind of question in a sophisticated young thinker gives me hope. What often happens is that they find a bandaid to plaster over the fissure in their faith. But eventually, so I feel convinced, the forces of time will be too strong for the bandaids to hold.

 

 

I don't know Ruby, it seems sometimes evident that the feeling is enought to fuel faith for a very long time. Btw, I don't know what is meant by the contingency argumnent.

[Shyone]

 

I don't know Ruby, it seems sometimes evident that the feeling is enought to fuel faith for a very long time. Btw, I don't know what is meant by the contingency argumnent.

There seem to be many arguments against the "feeling" arguments. I feel nothing, so no god exists? Or you feel it, so one does? Am I the proof against the argument?

 

If feelings are more important than objective evidence, then what invalidates the faith and feelings of the Muslim or Hindu?

 

If the subjective feelings of a man that thinks a god ordered him to commit evil acts are invalid, how do we judge his acts - since the subjective feelings are impossible to deny? Is this proof against the validity of subjective arguments as proof of anything?

 

Is there anything less valid about drug induced feelings than feelings one gets from meditation and fasting?

 

Are temporal lobe seizures messages from God, or a physical illness?

 

Anything that is experienced by some and not others can be said to be subjective, and the fact that many share similar experiences does not validate the reality of those experiences any more than the individual reports of alien abductions (with no supporting physical evidence).

[RiverDale]

This sounds like someone who wants to believe, but does not understand how he can. The take it on faith line no longer works on thinking people.

I also found it interesting that god was refered to a a person twice.

[oddbird1963]

That is a really thoughtful post. I wish more Christians like him would post here (as long as we are going to have Christians posting).

 

What he said about Craig not really having a definitive answer about what immateriality means was amusing. I think of LNC who posts on the forums quite often. He seems to be quite certain that he grasps what that means.

 

I think when it boils down to it, the so-called knowledge of god is a cold, academic exercise. Affirming agreement with a philosophical argument does not give you knowledge of a personal being. It gives you knowledge of the validity and formality of an argument. The same is true of knowledge gained through reading scripture or theological works. You may retain information about what is said about a deity, but you do not "know" that invisible being.

 

I don't think a person can claim to have a knowledge of god unless they maintain that "god" has spoken to them and/or regularly appears to them and responds to them in a way commensurate with communication. The feelings people get when reading Scripture or praying are subjective and unreliable. I might say that I "know" Mariska Hargitay because I feel a certain way when I watch Law and Order: SVU or read an interview with her in a magazine. But I don't know her. I may know about her, but that's not the same as knowledge of her as a person. The "know about" kind of knowledge is partial knowledge and may be helpful in certain contexts, but it is not personal knowledge.

 

The "know about" knowledge we gain from philosophy, scripture and theological treatises is less helpful than knowledge about a celebrity in magazines and on the TV. At least the existence of the celebrity is pretty certain. The existence of a god is not verifiable or certain.

 

So, I understand the Christian poster's struggle with knowledge of God. All Christianity can offer is some doctrinal statement that if you meet conditions a, b , c , d , etc. then you can be said to have knowledge of God. Subjective feelings tell you nothing. Indirect statements tell you nothing.

 

Wow! It's too bad the guy is asking such good questions. He may not be a Chrsitian much longer.

[R. S. Martin]

That is a really thoughtful post. I wish more Christians like him would post here (as long as we are going to have Christians posting).

 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear in the OP. I copied that quote from another forum (click on the link). He did not post it on these forums and probably doesn't know it's here. He had posted a long, well-written treatise. I just copied the last paragraph here because I felt it summarized his thought so well and contains some really interesting insights. I wasn't sure that I could summarize or paraphrase his thought well enough, so copying the last paragraph seemed about right. I didn't want to get into grey areas where copyright is concerned. I know a lot of people on forums do violate copyright law but I try to avoid it if possible. And this is such a long and well-written piece. To see the whole post, click on the link in the OP.

[R. S. Martin]

When people want something, they find a way. It takes an extraordinary amount of opposition to change that want, and I don't mean arguments alone. I mean a lot of stuff...peer group shift, angst or anguish, other stuff. If they want to believe in Jesus, most people will find a way, if believing Jesus is a bigger want than logic, thinking, hard proof, etc. If those things become the bigger want, that is one way for the Jesus belief to crumble for most. But they have to be a very high priority. Even then, sometimes they can resolve enough of their issues to ignore the conflicts. My ex sure did. He questioned just enough of his faith to get what he wanted -- a divorce -- and then locked up the box around Jesus again. Mission accomplished. Human got what he wanted.

 

Phanta

 

That is quite an insight and it makes sense of so many things!

 

I've been talking with my youngest sister--NOT the one who left the church, one who stayed. She seems capable of understanding the logic of my arguments. She is also capable of sophisticated self-analysis. She explained to me how faith works. I said, "If that is how faith is supposed to work, then it's blind belief." She said, "I"ve come to the conclusion that that is what faith is supposed to be."

 

I know she's felt quite conflicted because of all the new ideas her various big sisters are introducing to her brain. She keeps repeating a phrase about "what I want to believe." What you say, Phanta, would explain how she can be so intelligent yet not be willing to think things through to their logical conclusion. It is to preserve what she treasures above all else, what she wants--the familiar beliefs and her place in the community and family.

 

I could not make sense of this until I read your post. Thanks for sharing it, esp. with the example of your ex. I will be very much surprised if the young man who wrote the post from which I posted that quote will deconvert. He is seeking a way to hold onto belief and I am quite sure he will find one. He is citing high-profile Christians with whom he thinks he can identify. I think that puts him in the "safely Christian" category.

 

If he were using cold hard logic as his frame of reference as opposed to high-profile Christian apologists, with perhaps some ideas thrown in from a secular thinker or two, I would be more inclined to thinking we've got a possible case of deconversion at hand. I am thinking maybe his children or grandchildren will take it to that level. But not him.

[Neon Genesis]

I left my relationship when I understood the my ex's God concept and I were at odds, and he wanted Jesus more than he wanted me. Jesus came first.

 

 

 

 

Have you seen this article, Phanta? http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20091116/sc_livescience/romanticrivalriesstirreligiousfeelings

Rivals on the dating scene could make one feel closer to God, according to new research that suggests one's religiousness may be more closely related to mating strategies than previously known.

 

In experiments with 269 college students, researchers found that both men and women apparently felt more religious when they saw attractive potential competitors.

 

Social psychologists had volunteers view dating profiles of either attractive men or women and told them these were fellow students participating at an online dating site. They were then asked to rate, on a 10-point scale, the extent to which they agreed with statements like, "I believe in God," "We'd be better off if religion played a bigger role in people's lives," and "Religious beliefs are important to me in my everyday decisions."

 

The volunteers appeared more religious when exposed to attractive members of their own sex.

[oddbird1963]

That is a really thoughtful post. I wish more Christians like him would post here (as long as we are going to have Christians posting).

 

 

Maybe I wasn't clear in the OP. I copied that quote from another forum (click on the link). He did not post it on these forums and probably doesn't know it's here. He had posted a long, well-written treatise. I just copied the last paragraph here because I felt it summarized his thought so well and contains some really interesting insights. I wasn't sure that I could summarize or paraphrase his thought well enough, so copying the last paragraph seemed about right. I didn't want to get into grey areas where copyright is concerned. I know a lot of people on forums do violate copyright law but I try to avoid it if possible. And this is such a long and well-written piece. To see the whole post, click on the link in the OP.

 

Oh Yes, R.S. I realize he posted on a different site. I read his entire post on the other site.

 

I was just wishing more Christians like him would post here. He seems to recognize some the the inherent flaws in christian theology and avoids resorting to quote mining from the scriptures. I think he would be able to contribute to the dialogs on the forum.

[hereticzero]

The fundies I came from just never understood my decision to leave the church. Without faith, what is there? What is the attraction to something not believed in, since faith is what drives our belief systems. He is questioning the flaws of Christianity which means he is getting a thirst for truth and freedom. It won't belong until he has an account here!

[R. S. Martin]

I have now posted a link to this thread. We'll see if he comes over.

[oddbird1963]

I have now posted a link to this thread. We'll see if he comes over.

 

 

Good idea!