OnceConvinced Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 I recently got in contact with an old Christian friend from my youth (through Facebook) and I told her that I was no longer a Christian. That one day I'd come to the hard realisation that I didn't believe anymore. Although it was a sudden revelation, it was a process that took a long time and I was in denial for quite a bit. But one day I realised, none of it rang true to me anymore and I couldn't continue to try to fool myself. This seems to be a very difficult things for Christians to grasp that this sort of thing is possible. Of course they have their mindsets that you have rebelled because you just don't want to be a Christian anymore. To them, you still believe in God and the Jesus is the son of God, it's just that you have chosen to disbelieve. You have chosen to rebel. She didn't come out and tell me that, but her final comment on the subject pretty much exposed her mindset. She said "Well you know where God is if you decide you want to return." At that point I said no more, simply because I wanted to remain friends as her and her husband were great friends of mine all those years ago. But I felt like telling her "No, I don't. All the places I was taught he should be and who Christians claimed is where he is, he was not. Prayer achieved nothing, going to church achieved nothing, studying the bible achieved nothing. God was clearly not in any of those places." I would have liked to have said "If I could choose to believe in your God again, I would, because there is a lot of security in believing that God has everything under control and that death isn't the end, because you'll end up in Heaven. But I cannot choose to believe something. I cannot try to fool myself in believing those things again. I cannot "return" to something I do not believe exists, just as I cannot choose to believe there are fairies in my garden." Of course I knew it would be a waste of time trying to explain these concepts, because Christians have that mindset that God is real, your life will be empty without him and even though you say it's not, they won't believe you. As far as they're concerned, you have rebelled and God is exactly where they believe he is and they're convinced that deep down you believe the same thing. Man, I can't believe I was that dense as a Christian myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 This is part of the reason why I haven't talked to very many of my christian friends about my disbelief. Most of them just wouldn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 Man, I can't believe I was that dense as a Christian myself. I'm not sure it is always a matter of being dense, though sometimes it is. A conversion experience begins a web of emotional thrill and dependence, along with a filtered view of reality that reinforces the perceived reality of the beliefs by excluding anything that might undo it. They've been conned, as we were, and have the emotional equivalent of an addiction to the imaginary relationship with god. So your words are perceived as a threat to this person's sense of comfort, and thus there is dismissal of your deconversion. If the same person were already struggling with faith and willing to question, the same words could be seen as a means to escape the built-in condemnation that comes with the desire to leave the abuse of Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighteclectic Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 Man, I can't believe I was that dense as a Christian myself. I'm not sure it is always a matter of being dense, though sometimes it is. A conversion experience begins a web of emotional thrill and dependence, along with a filtered view of reality that reinforces the perceived reality of the beliefs by excluding anything that might undo it. They've been conned, as we were, and have the emotional equivalent of an addiction to the imaginary relationship with god. So your words are perceived as a threat to this person's sense of comfort, and thus there is dismissal of your deconversion. If the same person were already struggling with faith and willing to question, the same words could be seen as a means to escape the built-in condemnation that comes with the desire to leave the abuse of Christianity. Brilliant! Thank you for this, Fuego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lighteclectic Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 OC, completely understand the uncomfortable nature of the situation. I attended a church school (so small I was the only one in my grade) and many of my former schoolmates have looked me up on FB. After a couple of them read my posts showing the nature of religion in a negative light, they expressed shock and offense. I removed myself from the search engine and one as a "friend" altogether. For the rest I created a new group in FB that hides my status and links-- don't need the controversy and upsetting them accomplishes nothing. As Fuego notes unless they are already in a questioning mode they will only be angered so there's no point. Preserving friendships is going to be tough regardless. But a tool like FB can offer opportunity to provoke certain questions. Finding subtle ways to open the door to them is the trick. Takes a lot of finesse and skill to open dialog with certain societal groups. I hope that you find your happy medium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRDWarrior Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I have a couple facebook friends who recently found me who aren't yet aware of my disbelief mostly just because it hasn't come up. My one friend mentioned gawd a few times while talking to her, but none of it required any feedback from me, so rather than start a confrontation over nothing, I just ignored the comments and didn't reply. She didn't seem to notice... But yes, I agree that a lot of it has to do with the fact that acknowledging our deconversion would shake their faith. The only way many can keep their beliefs is to degrade our lack of belief - because gawd would surely never allow one of the flock to leave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 I recently had an old friend look me up who has gone completely "Christian" over the years. I never really got around to telling him where I was at; I was a bit put off during some of our conversation over the phone by remarks he made. Especially when he should know better, some of his comments during our talk were a bit condescending. As well, it seemed like I couldn't make a joke about anything, without getting a stony silence at the other end. I really hate that part when dealing with some religious friends or relatives - this sanctimonious attitude sometimes over what really are trivial remarks and jokes (that some of my more "secure" religious friends might still laugh at). I didn't even get around to telling this person where I was at; I knew from our twenty minute conversation that I really wanted nothing to do with them ever again - even though I signed off cordially, with a promise to re-connect in the future, etc. But, no thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Wolf Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 One of my high school friends turned into a royal dick when he found out I had decorated, and started to follow Wicca. He found out in the middle of a school play while we was talking about something in the green room. It was kinda fun though, having a quiet shouting match, run on stage for ques, resume the argument, act like nothing was up when we was on stage together, and then more of him telling me how I made a mistake and need to turn back to the Lord, and more of me telling him that I have no desires to walk that path again. Our friendship pretty much completely died when he said I was possessed by a demon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 This is part of the reason why I haven't talked to very many of my christian friends about my disbelief. Most of them just wouldn't get it. It's one of the reasons I have even avoided telling friends and family I'm no longer a Christian. But I'm getting to the stage now where I've about had enough of remaining "in the closet" and it's time to say WTF, I don't care anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 Man, I can't believe I was that dense as a Christian myself. I'm not sure it is always a matter of being dense, though sometimes it is. A conversion experience begins a web of emotional thrill and dependence, along with a filtered view of reality that reinforces the perceived reality of the beliefs by excluding anything that might undo it. They've been conned, as we were, and have the emotional equivalent of an addiction to the imaginary relationship with god. So your words are perceived as a threat to this person's sense of comfort, and thus there is dismissal of your deconversion. If the same person were already struggling with faith and willing to question, the same words could be seen as a means to escape the built-in condemnation that comes with the desire to leave the abuse of Christianity. Ah yes, the old fear mechanism that kicks in to try to protect us against percieved threats. I was recently shown an article about that from a member here along the lines of what you're saying and I found myself agreeing with it whole heartedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 OC, completely understand the uncomfortable nature of the situation. I attended a church school (so small I was the only one in my grade) and many of my former schoolmates have looked me up on FB. After a couple of them read my posts showing the nature of religion in a negative light, they expressed shock and offense. I removed myself from the search engine and one as a "friend" altogether. For the rest I created a new group in FB that hides my status and links-- don't need the controversy and upsetting them accomplishes nothing. As Fuego notes unless they are already in a questioning mode they will only be angered so there's no point. Preserving friendships is going to be tough regardless. But a tool like FB can offer opportunity to provoke certain questions. Finding subtle ways to open the door to them is the trick. Takes a lot of finesse and skill to open dialog with certain societal groups. I hope that you find your happy medium. The fact that in the end she changed the subject, was hopeful that she wasn't going to be a pain in the butt. For the next 20 minutes or so we exchanged IMs about non religion related stuff, enjoying catching up. I should definitely think about sorting out some groups so that I can keep my anti-fundamentalist slurs away from such people's views though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted December 13, 2009 Author Share Posted December 13, 2009 I have a couple facebook friends who recently found me who aren't yet aware of my disbelief mostly just because it hasn't come up. My one friend mentioned gawd a few times while talking to her, but none of it required any feedback from me, so rather than start a confrontation over nothing, I just ignored the comments and didn't reply. She didn't seem to notice... But yes, I agree that a lot of it has to do with the fact that acknowledging our deconversion would shake their faith. The only way many can keep their beliefs is to degrade our lack of belief - because gawd would surely never allow one of the flock to leave! I wouldn't have said anything if she hadn't asked me whether I still went to church. I recently had an old friend look me up who has gone completely "Christian" over the years. I never really got around to telling him where I was at; I was a bit put off during some of our conversation over the phone by remarks he made. Especially when he should know better, some of his comments during our talk were a bit condescending. As well, it seemed like I couldn't make a joke about anything, without getting a stony silence at the other end. I really hate that part when dealing with some religious friends or relatives - this sanctimonious attitude sometimes over what really are trivial remarks and jokes (that some of my more "secure" religious friends might still laugh at). I didn't even get around to telling this person where I was at; I knew from our twenty minute conversation that I really wanted nothing to do with them ever again - even though I signed off cordially, with a promise to re-connect in the future, etc. But, no thanks. I'm just waiting for one old freind who really starts to make it their mission to reconvert me so as to earn brownie points with the magical sky daddy. I'm afraid that person is going to hate me after I've finished dealing with them. Just wondering who that might end up being. One of my high school friends turned into a royal dick when he found out I had decorated, and started to follow Wicca. He found out in the middle of a school play while we was talking about something in the green room. It was kinda fun though, having a quiet shouting match, run on stage for ques, resume the argument, act like nothing was up when we was on stage together, and then more of him telling me how I made a mistake and need to turn back to the Lord, and more of me telling him that I have no desires to walk that path again. Our friendship pretty much completely died when he said I was possessed by a demon. Now that's the sort of crap that would really rile me up. Fortunately I haven't come across it yet, but when I do, I'm gonna have trouble biting my tongue. It's funny, I was of course totally against Wicca as a Christian, but just recently I met a woman who identified herself as Wiccan. I automatically saw it as a plus. I could just see myself introducing her to my Christian parents who indoctronated me from birth and saying, 'Here's my new girlfriend. She's Wiccan. If you don't like that, then tough shit!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 This is part of the reason why I haven't talked to very many of my christian friends about my disbelief. Most of them just wouldn't get it. It's one of the reasons I have even avoided telling friends and family I'm no longer a Christian. But I'm getting to the stage now where I've about had enough of remaining "in the closet" and it's time to say WTF, I don't care anymore. I haven't told them I'm no longer a christian either, other than my wife and one friend. My wife has been pretty cool about it. She's disappointed, but she doesn't bombard me with religion. I imagine that it's probably leaked to a few others, but I don't think my family knows (I definitely would have heard from my dad on the matter if he knew). I guess that's one nice thing about having moved 500 miles away. I have contemplated bringing the issue up with another friend of mine, whom I do believe would be fairly understanding about it. We got together when I was visiting the old hometown over Thanksgiving weekend, and I would have been open to talking about it, but none of our conversation went in a direction that would have made it reasonable to bring up the issue, so I didn't. I think we could have some interesting conversations about it, though, so I'm sure I would have brought it up by now if I still lived out there. But, yeah, I seem to be getting closer to the WTF stage myself, although it would still be difficult with my father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted December 13, 2009 Share Posted December 13, 2009 As I've said before, this is why I don't do Facebook. Facebook = ghosts from the past, biting you on the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendredie Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 As I've said before, this is why I don't do Facebook. Facebook = ghosts from the past, biting you on the ass. Ain't this the truth. The old band director at my school just sent me a friend request. yes, he's the same one who went to prison for a year for having sex with a 17 year old girl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura76 Posted December 14, 2009 Share Posted December 14, 2009 I know what you mean, I'm sorry you had such an experience... I find myself sometimes getting nervous when I share my *little* doubts with my "fellow" believers. There is always condemnation mixed with good christian concern when they think they have seen my faith falter, when in fact they probably often have less faith about things than I do, though they don't have the courage to admit it to someone's face like I did! Oh well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted December 14, 2009 Author Share Posted December 14, 2009 With the few old Christian friends I have who know, and when they say something, usually subtlly, I just slip in subtle little comments that ask a question. It takes a few days or so for them to figure it out...then they get kind of pissed...LOL. Ha ha. I like that. As I've said before, this is why I don't do Facebook. Facebook = ghosts from the past, biting you on the ass. I guess I'm a sentimental fool. I love catching up with old friends I haven't seen in years. Hell, I'll even welcome old enemies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Doll Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 Man, I can't believe I was that dense as a Christian myself. I hear ya. I feel so disconnected from those 18 years, but yet I know exactly what is going through their heads when I read and hear the bullshit they say. I personally just plowed into my "coming out" and took no prisoners. My coming out was pretty much "I'm no longer a Christian. And BTW, I'm also gay and changing my gender." Heh, imagine some of the responses from that one. I actually contacted a lot of old Christian friends just to shock the shit out of them. What can I say? I amuse myself in odd ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vomit Comet Posted December 15, 2009 Share Posted December 15, 2009 I personally just plowed into my "coming out" and took no prisoners. My coming out was pretty much "I'm no longer a Christian. And BTW, I'm also gay and changing my gender." Heh, imagine some of the responses from that one. I actually contacted a lot of old Christian friends just to shock the shit out of them. What can I say? I amuse myself in odd ways. Any way you could quote or paraphrase some choice snippets? I bet they're a hoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 I personally just plowed into my "coming out" and took no prisoners. My coming out was pretty much "I'm no longer a Christian. And BTW, I'm also gay and changing my gender." Heh, imagine some of the responses from that one. I actually contacted a lot of old Christian friends just to shock the shit out of them. What can I say? I amuse myself in odd ways. Any way you could quote or paraphrase some choice snippets? I bet they're a hoot! I'd bet they were all flabbergasted. I mean, where do you start to criticise if you're a fundamentalist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 I know what you mean, I'm sorry you had such an experience... I find myself sometimes getting nervous when I share my *little* doubts with my "fellow" believers. There is always condemnation mixed with good christian concern when they think they have seen my faith falter, when in fact they probably often have less faith about things than I do, though they don't have the courage to admit it to someone's face like I did! Oh well... Yeah, and of course because they believe they are "true Christians" that makes them think they are more holier than you. I hear ya. I feel so disconnected from those 18 years, but yet I know exactly what is going through their heads when I read and hear the bullshit they say. Yeah, you do don't you? You were there, so you know exactly what their mindsets are. This woman was just so transparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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