The Biblical Doctrine Of Salvation

[Guest FaithDefender619]

I've been getting a lot of complaints that I don't elaborate on my doctrine so I will start shifting gears from mostly a poster to mostly a thread starter and elaborate on some of the doctrine that I and the bible teach, the first of which is salvation.

 

Now what salvation isn't. It isn't God forcing you to live a good christian life as the calvinist believe. You are "preserved" in your faith the bible is full of parables and accounts of people falling away or being cut off. salvation isn't a once and for all thing and actually encompasses 3 different events, initial salvation (the salvation by grace through faith), probation (where a believer lives according to the will of God and final salvation (where one must persevere to the end to get into the kingdom of heaven). And finally salvation is not something that can be earned by works. You, I and no other christian can gain salvation by doing enough good deeds be it final salvation or initial salvation. However saving faith is not a faith that produces no works. As James 2:17 says faith without works is a dead faith, so if the faith a professing chrisitan has doesn't produce a zeal to do good things and but rather to continue on in sin because they are under "grace" isn't a real working, saving faith.

 

Now that we have a better picture of what salvation isn't, lets delve into what is. In one of Jesus' parables he speaks of seed and the seed sower. This parable can be found in Matthew 13 starting at verse 3. So sum it up basically the seed (which is later explained as the word or gospel message) will have one of many effects on a person. It may fall by the wayside and the fowls of the air will snatch it up, it may fall on stony ground rise up and endure for a while but when the sun comes up its burned up because it has no depth of earth, it can fall among thorns and weeds and be choked out or it can fall on good earth and bear fruit. When the disciples ask Christ to elaborate on this, He gives the most sound refutation of once save always saved in the bible. Matthew 13:18-23 reads:

 

"Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

 

If we notice that aside from refuting OSAS this parable mentions the seed that fell on stony ground that "dureth" for a while but fell away. This brings me to my next point about enduring to the end. Many proponents of OSAS and the more modern gospel of easy believism will look over endurance as a precondition for final salvation. In Matthew 24:11-14 Jesus gives us a disturbingly accurate picture of the modern church when He says:

 

 

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

 

Likewise Jesus in Mark 13:11-14 explains what the Apostles would go through and it could be argued what the Church in general would go through when He says:

 

"But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

 

 

So what is all this enduring to the end business about. Doesn't Jesus say that no man will be plucked from hand in John 10:28? Doesn't the bible say that God who started a good work in us will complete it unto the day of Jesus Christ in Phillipians 1:1-7? Well yes indeed those things are said, and if we lift those verses out of context, interpret them in a vacuum, one might think that's it. But as we all know the bible is written in books. A good rule to follow about biblical doctrine is that if it cannot be found in at least 3 different places in scripture its probably not biblical. So lets address these so called "proof texts", that talk about enduring to the end.

 

John 10:26-28 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

"So according to Jesus none of His sheep can be snatched out of His hand, did you catch what He didn't say? He never said a sheep couldn't WALK out. As a matter of fact in Luke 15:4 Jesus talks about how a shepherd will leave his 99 sheep if one goes astray until He finds it. Also notice the pre-condition to being a sheep, you follow him. If aren't following Him you aren't one of His sheep. When I was in the Marines we went on patrols when I was deployed to Djibouti, Africa. My platoon would follow our platoon leader, now if I just followed a few steps and stopped did I really follow Him? No. I have to follow him to the end of the patrol to have fully followed him."

 

 

Philippians 1:1-7

 

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace."

 

 

So here we have it God will continue the work of salvation that He started until the end right? WRONG. Who is this letter addressed to? The church of Phillipi, more important the Saints in Chirst Jesus. What Paul is saying isn't a guarantee that they will get to heaven but rather He is expressing His confidence that they will indeed persevere to the end. If Paul was guaranteeing the Saints at Phillipi then why in Phillipians 2:12 would He tell the same people to WORKOUT their own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING.

 

 

A good video by a brother in the Lord explains this doctrine in more detail.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSK6LqPLSFI

 

More in prt 2

[Guest FaithDefender619]

Now what is grace. In today's Christianity people feel that they can sin as much as they want or "try" not to sin and therefore grace will pick up the slack. And this is simply non-sense the bible makes it clear that sin in a christian life should be the exception not the rule and when sin is committed it should be repented of immediately.

 

John 8:34

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

 

and as we all know

 

Matthew 6:24

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

 

But what is grace and what does it do.

 

 

Titus 2:10-15 (King James Version)

 

"Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

"

 

If this doesn't describe your christian walk then chances are you are either a lukewarm chrisitan or not a christian at all. However the most important passages have been left until now. Jesus has told us what it takes to become a christian.

 

Luke 9:22-24 (King James Version)

 

Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

 

To walk after Christ we must deny ourselves and walk according to Him which is to say walk after the spirit and not after the flesh. As Jesus tells us in a later parable, you must count the cost. In the days of the early church Christians were being slaughtered wholesale. They were being burned, impaled, crucified and even crucified upside down, thrown to wild animal etc. Yet the great many of the early saints went to their deaths singing and with joy in their hearts. Why? Because they counted the cost of being a chrisitan and were willing to pay that cost which in almost every instance was their life. This is the faith of a true christian, its not going to church and its not saying prayers every night. Its being willing to put yourself in harms way for the gospel sake (and in that time just being a christian was dangerous enough) and if called on to do so die for that faith.

 

I finish this thread with Luke 14:27-33

 

Luke 14:27-333 (King James Version)

 

27And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

 

28For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?

 

29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

 

30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.

 

31Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?

 

32Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.

 

33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

 

 

I look forward to comments and discussion

[insanezenmistress]

 

before i Stopped lieing to god and myself i began a study of the stuff at Ray Smith's site. Bible truths dot com i think. google it.

 

I hear what you are saying about proof texts you need more than one to say a thing is biblical.

 

In that study he asked the question about who is going to be saved or reconcilled to God through Christ.

 

Ray was of the oppnion that it is biblical that God will save all mankind. And that hell was temporary. He claimed that becasue the word for hell translates in to age.

 

Anyway. Your point is that once saved always saved is false biblically but my point is that the following verses tell of god saving all.

 

Now if god reconcilles all or even some, and forever is really the hebrew/arimaic word for Age (or a time) then who is safe in their salvation? Anyway here is a large list of verses. I wont quote them out becasue i dont have all night.

 

1tim 2:3-4, jn 12:47, eph 1:11, jn 4:42, 1jn:14, jn12:32. Col 1:16, rm 5:15-21, acts 3:20-21, luke 2:10, heb 8:11, 12....

 

i could go on about three more paragraphs worth. I am little worried though that will lose your topic of what salvation IS, i jsut wanted to establish that perhaps knowing what it is doesn tmatter in light of the bible teaching that we all are going to get it in the end.

 

izm

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Wait, there is a doctrine for salvation.

Here is in one sentence, well actually a few words

 

Relationship or burn

 

Doesn't sound like much of a relationship, it seems more like a demand to join a transcendent fan club.

 

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes”

 

-gene roddenberry.

[Shyone]

First, if someone were to post a screed as long as yours outlining the Islamic path to Salvation according to His Holy Prophet Mohammed complete with multiple quotes from the Holy Quran, your eyes would glaze over and you would likely say (or think), "What a bunch of crap!"

 

Heck, I might do that just to see what your response would be, not that I give a flip about Islamic theology...

 

Second, you cherry pick. There are verses to justify almost any position. Really. I've seen it done. That's why there are so many denominations and sects.

 

Third, even if the theology is correctly depicted from the Bible, there is still nothing to suggest that its intrinsic consistency is correct any more than the Mormon theology or the Scientology theology. Internal consistency, which is still debatable despite your efforts, is not a guarantee that the consistency refers to anything "real."

 

Last, if someone asked for this, then you have fulfilled your mission.

 

---------------------------------------

 

Ok, what the heck, just a small sample.

 

The purpose of life is to live in a way that is pleasing to Allah so that one may gain Paradise. It is believed that at puberty, an account of each person's deeds is opened, and this will be used at the Day of Judgment to determine his eternal fate. The Qur'an also suggests a doctrine of divine predestination.

 

The Muslim doctrine of salvation is that unbelievers (kuffar, literally "those who are ungrateful") and sinners will be condemned, but genuine repentance results in Allah's forgiveness and entrance into Paradise upon death.

 

The Qur'an teaches the necessity of both faith and good works for salvation:

 

He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. (33:43)

 

In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), that which ye were promised!" (41:30)

 

And fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (3:131)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Boy, you're in trouble.

[Franko47]

Just as a side question when you have a moment, Defender. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity or not ? You barely mention the Holy Spirit (Ghost) in passing, and no mention of the "Father".

 

Without the acceptance of the Holy Spirit, you don't have anything at all. Many people rejoice in Jesus, but I've noticed at times that it has almost a "cult of personality" feel to it; it's an emotional tribute, and of course even intoxicating to many. But I was always more of a Holy Spirit kind of guy; an inspiration that goes to the core, and doesn't need a whole lot of "legal fine print" and "theory" to figure out or act upon. Yet no mention of that. Everything is fear and trembling, a need for almost fanatical dedication, a degree in clerical legalism (holy cow)and a path so narrow that it's almost absurd. It's even esoteric in places.

 

Your criteria for salvation is pretty strict, don't you think ? Is that because you want it to be that way ? Most Christians I know are pretty nice people, and have an innate respect for the Lord and do the best they can. Call them "falling short" or "lukewarm" if you wish, but to me you're just another self-styled prophet; you just love "raising the bar" - and often to ridiculous extremes.

 

That's not an insult, just an observation. I'm not sure that debating atheists is really that constructive here, I'd rather see you debate other Christians or Ex-Christians well-versed in theology and scriptural study.

 

I may have other questions later.

[bdp]

heard it all, but indulge yourself anyway.

[par4dcourse]

*Yawn* Did anyone read anything in that epic that we haven't heard ad nauseum before?

[Guest FaithDefender619]

First, if someone were to post a screed as long as yours outlining the Islamic path to Salvation according to His Holy Prophet Mohammed complete with multiple quotes from the Holy Quran, your eyes would glaze over and you would likely say (or think), "What a bunch of crap!"

 

Heck, I might do that just to see what your response would be, not that I give a flip about Islamic theology...

 

Second, you cherry pick. There are verses to justify almost any position. Really. I've seen it done. That's why there are so many denominations and sects.

 

Third, even if the theology is correctly depicted from the Bible, there is still nothing to suggest that its intrinsic consistency is correct any more than the Mormon theology or the Scientology theology. Internal consistency, which is still debatable despite your efforts, is not a guarantee that the consistency refers to anything "real."

 

Last, if someone asked for this, then you have fulfilled your mission.

 

---------------------------------------

 

Ok, what the heck, just a small sample.

 

The purpose of life is to live in a way that is pleasing to Allah so that one may gain Paradise. It is believed that at puberty, an account of each person's deeds is opened, and this will be used at the Day of Judgment to determine his eternal fate. The Qur'an also suggests a doctrine of divine predestination.

 

The Muslim doctrine of salvation is that unbelievers (kuffar, literally "those who are ungrateful") and sinners will be condemned, but genuine repentance results in Allah's forgiveness and entrance into Paradise upon death.

 

The Qur'an teaches the necessity of both faith and good works for salvation:

 

He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. (33:43)

 

In the case of those who say, "Our Lord is Allah," and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest), "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), that which ye were promised!" (41:30)

 

And fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith. (3:131)

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Boy, you're in trouble.

 

Which is why I posted the video which sums up the points I made.

 

And Muslims are in greater trouble if you read Galatians 1:7-9.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

Just as a side question when you have a moment, Defender. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity or not ? You barely mention the Holy Spirit (Ghost) in passing, and no mention of the "Father".

 

Without the acceptance of the Holy Spirit, you don't have anything at all. Many people rejoice in Jesus, but I've noticed at times that it has almost a "cult of personality" feel to it; it's an emotional tribute, and of course even intoxicating to many. But I was always more of a Holy Spirit kind of guy; an inspiration that goes to the core, and doesn't need a whole lot of "legal fine print" and "theory" to figure out or act upon. Yet no mention of that. Everything is fear and trembling, a need for almost fanatical dedication, a degree in clerical legalism (holy cow)and a path so narrow that it's almost absurd. It's even esoteric in places.

 

Your criteria for salvation is pretty strict, don't you think ? Is that because you want it to be that way ? Most Christians I know are pretty nice people, and have an innate respect for the Lord and do the best they can. Call them "falling short" or "lukewarm" if you wish, but to me you're just another self-styled prophet; you just love "raising the bar" - and often to ridiculous extremes.

 

That's not an insult, just an observation. I'm not sure that debating atheists is really that constructive here, I'd rather see you debate other Christians or Ex-Christians well-versed in theology and scriptural study.

 

I may have other questions later.

 

1. Yeah I believe in the trinity.

 

2. Its not just Jesus, not just the Holy Spirit and Not Jus the Father.

 

 

Its all three. When we praise Jesus we are making spiritual offerings

which in turn are given to the Father. Much like the OT priest made

intercession for the people of Israel in the OT law.

 

 

Everything isn't fear and trembling the bible says that perfect love cast out all fear, what I am trying to do is explain what salvation is. Growing in Godliness or growing in sanctification would cover perfect love and all that but the bible is clear that we are to walk circumspectly, that we are to keep a tight rein on out tongue, that we are to purify ourselves and to crucify our flesh and to forsake our sin. If this is done by the will of men then yes indeed I would agree this would be all but impossible. But as the scripture says all things are possible through Christ who strengthen me. And that His commandments aren't a burden but a joy to perform. Now I'm sure that I may have missed some points but this is where the Q&A came in.

 

3. They aren't my standards. Can I could lie and say its as simple as 1-2-3 but its not. Jesus says that the road to heaven is narrow and the road to hell is broad. God didn't ask for respect He commands that we love Him with all our heart, mind and strength. Being nice is cool but Jesus said woe unto you when all men speak well of you. This isn't to say go out and be mean and nasty but when we look at the examples of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ they weren't always "nice" infact sometimes they would be what we call mean. I cannot raise the bar to extremes nor am I a self-styled prophet I'm simply reading off what the bible says in context. And again if these things were to be done by just the power of men then yes it would be pretty hard however we have the guidance of the holy spirit, a new heart and access to God at anytime.

 

4. Oh this wasn't meant as a debate I was asked to elaborate on what I meant about biblical salvation so here it is.

 

Thanks for the response look forward to more.

[Thurisaz]

Whoever claims "I believe in da trinutty" is not worth responding to.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

Whoever claims "I believe in da trinutty" is not worth responding to.

 

and yet you responded.

[bdp]

"The Biblical Doctrine Of Salvation" doesn't mean jack shit if you can't show me why I should believe it has any authority over me. Which it doesn't, and which you can't.

[Dagan]

If the bible cannot be trusted as the word of god, all your arguments are worthless.

 

The bible cannot be trusted as the word of god because it was written by mostly anonymous authors, because in many cases the context is missing (i.e. Paul's letters), because the earliest copies of manuscripts were written sometimes hundreds or even thousands of years after the events they purport to describe, because some copies of manuscripts disagree with each other and have different bits (i.e. the "Great Commission" and snake-handling verses in Mark), because some of the events which allegedly happen in the bible have zero evidence which would have abounded if they were true (i.e. the entire city of Nineveh repenting, the sun standing still, people rising from graves and walking around the city of Jerusalem while the sky turned black), because some passages bear signs of tampering (i.e. Isaiah), because many of the Genesis stories reflect stories found in older documents from other cultures and religions, and because a literary reading of the bible alongside archaeological evidence, historical evidence, and other literary sources from the time periods represented in the bible show some of its events to be untrue, misrepresented, mythological or copied from other traditions.

 

Therefore, all of your arguments are worthless.

 

Before you beak off about how the bible is true because it says it's true, at least read or watch a documentary about how the bible came to be. I suggest the excellent "From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians" by PBS' Frontline. The entire show is available online, check it out.

[Jedah]

I find it interesting that one of your key repeat arguments is that you have an objective knowledge source from God and yet you clearly have your own unique idea on what you believe the doctrine of salvation\hell is. I take this to mean that you feel that all other christians who don't subscribe to this ( and from the sound of things, that would be the vast majority ) are false and that you are the only true christians™? Or is this just cognitive dissonance on your part that you have yet to realize?

[OnceConvinced]

I've been getting a lot of complaints that I don't elaborate on my doctrine so I will start shifting gears from mostly a poster to mostly a thread starter and elaborate on some of the doctrine that I and the bible teach, the first of which is salvation.

I'm glad that you acknowledge that this is your doctrine and not God's.

 

Now what salvation isn't. It isn't God forcing you to live a good christian life as the calvinist believe. You are "preserved" in your faith the bible is full of parables and accounts of people falling away or being cut off. salvation isn't a once and for all thing and actually encompasses 3 different events, initial salvation (the salvation by grace through faith), probation (where a believer lives according to the will of God and final salvation (where one must persevere to the end to get into the kingdom of heaven). And finally salvation is not something that can be earned by works. You, I and no other christian can gain salvation by doing enough good deeds be it final salvation or initial salvation. However saving faith is not a faith that produces no works. As James 2:17 says faith without works is a dead faith, so if the faith a professing chrisitan has doesn't produce a zeal to do good things and but rather to continue on in sin because they are under "grace" isn't a real working, saving faith.

So far this is pretty much what I believed as a Christian. However none of it explains why you think you have such a strong depth in your faith. None of it shows why you believe you are a true Christian with the HS.

 

Now that we have a better picture of what salvation isn't, lets delve into what is. In one of Jesus' parables he speaks of seed and the seed sower. This parable can be found in Matthew 13 starting at verse 3. So sum it up basically the seed (which is later explained as the word or gospel message) will have one of many effects on a person. It may fall by the wayside and the fowls of the air will snatch it up, it may fall on stony ground rise up and endure for a while but when the sun comes up its burned up because it has no depth of earth, it can fall among thorns and weeds and be choked out or it can fall on good earth and bear fruit. When the disciples ask Christ to elaborate on this, He gives the most sound refutation of once save always saved in the bible. Matthew 13:18-23 reads:

 

"Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

 

If we notice that aside from refuting OSAS this parable mentions the seed that fell on stony ground that "dureth" for a while but fell away. This brings me to my next point about enduring to the end. Many proponents of OSAS and the more modern gospel of easy believism will look over endurance as a precondition for final salvation. In Matthew 24:11-14 Jesus gives us a disturbingly accurate picture of the modern church when He says:

Now as a Christian I always took this scripture very seriously and fully believed I was the seed that beared fruit. No doubt you think you're such a seed to. Although I see no reason to believe that you are. What makes you think you are?

 

As for now, I look at this parable and I do not see where I fit. No matter what you may claim, diligently serving Christ, worhsiping him, praying, doing his will, studying his word for over 30 years and then falling away does not put me in the category of the seed on the stones or in the weeds. I did not get detered by troubles and for 26 or so of those years, I had completely faith in Christ, without any doubts at all. In fact my life beared fruit throughout these years. A seed cannot survive on stone or in weeds for that long a time, so the whole analogy falls flat when it comes to me and I daresay many of the ex-Christians here.

 

I agree that the bible does say that a true Christian will endure to the end, however none of your preaching here is anything new. We've all heard it many times before and frankly have no reason to believe anything the bible says is true. So much of it has been proven false to us.

 

My question is how do you know that you are a true Christian? That your faith is deep enough to endure to the end? What makes you think you are so special and that you are not the thorny or stony ground? And no just because you are a Christian and we're not does not make you anything special. To many of us you are no different to what we were when we were Christians. We believed the same rubbish. We foolishly took the bible seriously. Come on FD, what makes you so special? What makes you think you won't end up like us in a few years time? It was inconcievable to many of us that we would end up here, but we did.

[mwc]

Now what salvation isn't. It isn't God forcing you to live a good christian life as the calvinist believe.

Wow. You sure told them there "calvinist" fuckers. Take that!

 

You are "preserved" in your faith the bible is full of parables and accounts of people falling away or being cut off. salvation isn't a once and for all thing and actually encompasses 3 different events, initial salvation (the salvation by grace through faith), probation (where a believer lives according to the will of God and final salvation (where one must persevere to the end to get into the kingdom of heaven). And finally salvation is not something that can be earned by works. You, I and no other christian can gain salvation by doing enough good deeds be it final salvation or initial salvation. However saving faith is not a faith that produces no works. As James 2:17 says faith without works is a dead faith, so if the faith a professing chrisitan has doesn't produce a zeal to do good things and but rather to continue on in sin because they are under "grace" isn't a real working, saving faith.

So, "grace," "probation" and "salvation" are your watchwords. Good to know.

 

For God so loved the world that he sent his only son to put you all on probation...

 

Has a certain ring to it. It's like working at the Wal-mart waiting for all the benefits to kick in. For god's kid so pulled some strings to get you a gig at the local QuikMart and if you hang-in for the 6 month probationary period you can get that thing on your ass checked at the HMO. Sounds good.

 

If we notice that aside from refuting OSAS this parable mentions the seed that fell on stony ground that "dureth" for a while but fell away. This brings me to my next point about enduring to the end. Many proponents of OSAS and the more modern gospel of easy believism will look over endurance as a precondition for final salvation. In Matthew 24:11-14 Jesus gives us a disturbingly accurate picture of the modern church when He says:

 

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

He said all that stuff? And yet people are confused? Why didn't he just come out and say "I'm soundly refuting Once saved always saved here people. I know this sounds out of place right now but it's going to be a big problem down the road. Someone should jot this down. It would really help a lot of people out." I guess foresight isn't 20/20 even for a god-man. Fortunately we have you.

 

Likewise Jesus in Mark 13:11-14 explains what the Apostles would go through and it could be argued what the Church in general would go through when He says:

 

"But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:"

Yeah, let "him that readeth understand" because the disciples, much less anyone else, couldn't even decode your last example of the seeds which pissed old "jesus" off. But here? They'll figure this shit out and run to the hills. Like hell they will. So far all they've managed is the whole "Hey, let's kill each other" part. Dan Brown has a better shot at this puzzle than the disciples or early xians did.

 

So what is all this enduring to the end business about. Doesn't Jesus say that no man will be plucked from hand in John 10:28? Doesn't the bible say that God who started a good work in us will complete it unto the day of Jesus Christ in Phillipians 1:1-7? Well yes indeed those things are said, and if we lift those verses out of context, interpret them in a vacuum, one might think that's it. But as we all know the bible is written in books. A good rule to follow about biblical doctrine is that if it cannot be found in at least 3 different places in scripture its probably not biblical. So lets address these so called "proof texts", that talk about enduring to the end.

If something is in the bible, but it's not in 3 places in the bible, then it's "probably" not biblical? But it very well *could* be biblical IF it suits our purposes I suppose? So if it's not in 3 places then we can likely overlook it, maybe, because with those nasty synoptics lots of things are in 3 places but then we have some things that may only be in 1 place which should be tossed out but that would be no good so we'll keep them if we need them but discard them if someone else needs them for their argument.

 

This is a good rule. Extremely stupid, yes, but good. I say that it's stupid, just so you know, because it's stupid. I'm sure you understand that something is biblical, by definition, by being in the bible and not that it's repeated a certain number of times. We're not trying to get back from Oz after all (There's no place like home, That text is biblical, that text is biblical, that text is biblical! *poof* Woohoo! My penis got larger! Erm. I mean my penis was already very large...do not look behind the curtain...for the next few minutes).

 

John 10:26-28 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

 

"So according to Jesus none of His sheep can be snatched out of His hand, did you catch what He didn't say? He never said a sheep couldn't WALK out. As a matter of fact in Luke 15:4 Jesus talks about how a shepherd will leave his 99 sheep if one goes astray until He finds it. Also notice the pre-condition to being a sheep, you follow him. If aren't following Him you aren't one of His sheep. When I was in the Marines we went on patrols when I was deployed to Djibouti, Africa. My platoon would follow our platoon leader, now if I just followed a few steps and stopped did I really follow Him? No. I have to follow him to the end of the patrol to have fully followed him."

But a shepherd is responsible for the flock. The flock is not responsible for the shepherd. If a wolf appears the sheep do not attack and kill the wolf. They do not rally around the shepherd to protect him. If he falls in battle they do not help him. They are sheep. His job is to tend the flock. If the sheep stops moving it is the shepherds JOB to get it moving again. Not to simply say "Your choice sheep. See ya." Sheep are not simply a group of volunteers that choose to follow a shepherd. This is what the xian church is supposed to be.

 

It was your JOB as a marine to go on that patrol. It was your JOB to make it through the entire patrol for the sake of everyone involved. And if you failed you would have been disciplined for not doing your JOB. The shepherd, for not doing his JOB, should likewise be disciplined. The sheep, is a simple animal, and it's just ignorant to blame a lowly animal for not achieving the "goal" set for it by the shepherd set charge over them. If the animals don't respond then maybe he should use other techniques? Certainly the owner of the sheep would like to have all of his sheep rather than lose them due to the poor performance of this shepherd?

 

Shepherd/sheep and Marine patrols are not an apples to apples comparison.

 

So here we have it God will continue the work of salvation that He started until the end right? WRONG. Who is this letter addressed to? The church of Phillipi, more important the Saints in Chirst Jesus. What Paul is saying isn't a guarantee that they will get to heaven but rather He is expressing His confidence that they will indeed persevere to the end. If Paul was guaranteeing the Saints at Phillipi then why in Phillipians 2:12 would He tell the same people to WORKOUT their own salvation with FEAR and TREMBLING.

And since this letter is addressed to the church of Phillipi we can then assume that ALL the information within it is ONLY for those at Phillipi? Correct? I didn't check to see if this was in 3 places or not but I'm going to assume it's not in three places but maybe only in 1 place or maybe in zero places but it suits my argument making it correct or biblical.

 

Likewise, "jesus" only speaks to Jews most of the time. In a few select places gentiles but most often Jews. And as such everything about, well whatever he says since it doesn't matter, is only for those Jews. I don't mean Jews in general but I mean Todd the Jew he was speaking to at that moment. And later, when he's petting Pat the bunny, and saying whatever he has to say about whatever nonsense comes to mind at that moment, well, that's for Pat the bunny. And so on and so forth. Whenever anyone specifically addresses anything, at all, to anyone then that information is specifically for that someone...unless it's not of course (by those rules we've set forth earlier on how to decide if something is biblical or not).

 

mwc

[OnceConvinced]

 

Which is why I posted the video which sums up the points I made.

 

And Muslims are in greater trouble if you read Galatians 1:7-9.

 

I myself think that if it came down to having to worshipping either Allah or the Bible God, I'd have to go with Allah. I figure the God of the bible is going to be a lot more forgiving and understanding than Allah. Allah is such a demented feind, I'd avoid his wrath at all costs.

 

As for Galations, I see no reason to believe the writings of the deluded Paul.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

 

Which is why I posted the video which sums up the points I made.

 

And Muslims are in greater trouble if you read Galatians 1:7-9.

 

I myself think that if it came down to having to worshipping either Allah or the Bible God, I'd have to go with Allah. I figure the God of the bible is going to be a lot more forgiving and understanding than Allah. Allah is such a demented feind, I'd avoid his wrath at all costs.

 

As for Galations, I see no reason to believe the writings of the deluded Paul.

 

But you would believe the writings of a man who had seizures and claimed it was angelic revelation?

[Shyone]

 

So what is all this enduring to the end business about. Doesn't Jesus say that no man will be plucked from hand in John 10:28? Doesn't the bible say that God who started a good work in us will complete it unto the day of Jesus Christ in Phillipians 1:1-7? Well yes indeed those things are said, and if we lift those verses out of context, interpret them in a vacuum, one might think that's it. But as we all know the bible is written in books. A good rule to follow about biblical doctrine is that if it cannot be found in at least 3 different places in scripture its probably not biblical. So lets address these so called "proof texts", that talk about enduring to the end.

If something is in the bible, but it's not in 3 places in the bible, then it's "probably" not biblical? But it very well *could* be biblical IF it suits our purposes I suppose? So if it's not in 3 places then we can likely overlook it, maybe, because with those nasty synoptics lots of things are in 3 places but then we have some things that may only be in 1 place which should be tossed out but that would be no good so we'll keep them if we need them but discard them if someone else needs them for their argument.

 

This is a good rule. Extremely stupid, yes, but good. I say that it's stupid, just so you know, because it's stupid. I'm sure you understand that something is biblical, by definition, by being in the bible and not that it's repeated a certain number of times. We're not trying to get back from Oz after all (There's no place like home, That text is biblical, that text is biblical, that text is biblical! *poof* Woohoo! My penis got larger! Erm. I mean my penis was already very large...do not look behind the curtain...for the next few minutes).

 

 

mwc

The Bible isn't like a Hockey Game where different doctrines are scored by the number of times mentioned, winner take all. It's either in there or not, and unfortunately, there is contradiction (acknowledged in a backhanded way by FaithDefender).

 

Repetition does not equal veracity.

 

That goes for FaithDefender too.

[Shyone]

 

As for Galations, I see no reason to believe the writings of the deluded Paul.

 

But you would believe the writings of a man who had seizures and claimed it was angelic revelation?

That IS Paul.

[par4dcourse]

As for Galations, I see no reason to believe the writings of the deluded Paul.

 

But you would believe the writings of a man who had seizures and claimed it was angelic revelation?

That IS Paul.

 

Jesus says that the road to heaven is narrow and the road to hell is broad.

Too narrow for our cliche, it seems.

[insanezenmistress]

I believe Faithbender got the finial red words of Han Solo...... i am releived.

 

and happy becasue someone did rip him a new one before he got cast aside.

 

(psst i am not a chrisitan egghead virgin anymore)

[centauri]

And finally salvation is not something that can be earned by works. You, I and no other christian can gain salvation by doing enough good deeds be it final salvation or initial salvation.

However, according to the New Testament certain works are required for salvation.

Some charitable good works are required.

Repenting is required.

Confessing is required.

Belief is required.

Maintaining belief is required.

Baptism is required.

 

These are all works.

None of them are automatically performed by a potential convert unless predestination is in effect, in which case the outcome was already determined in advance.

 

No Christian version of salvation is consistent with the formula for salvation as given in the Hebrews scriptures found in the Bible.

[qadeshet]

The Biblical Doctrine Of Salvation? Let's see. Yahweh screws up so badly in the Garden that He has to send His Son, who's really Himself, to die on the cross as a sacrifice to Himself, to save us from Himself. A five year old come come up with a better plan.