Church

[Deva]

Honestly, I would rather just be a loner I guess, be apart of any random church, but not have a leader of the church tell me something crude to this nature, or judge me when I do go. I think church is great, and I am excited to go, and sing, and hear the message; but, ..when church gets to wondering if I know Jesus, if I live right, if I believe what is important to you, and then raise an eyebrow when I don't, then it becomes not so great of an experience. BUT, it works, and thats why they do it, because guilt trips work for those that have emotions.

 

I am afraid what it always comes down to is your part about "when church gets to wondering if I know Jesus..." I have been in a few churches and I am not sure it doesn't apply to ALL religions that gather in groups, whether it be mosques, dharma centers or churches. At first they are more than happy to have a new member, but after awhile more and more seems to be required for you to be a "real" member.

 

I personally doubt that Jesus ever said that verse in the Bible about "upon this rock I shall build my church.." That is one of those verses that is suspect to me because I think Jesus in other places seems to be aware of the problems of religious leaders and groups. What he said about the Pharisees, who were the religious leaders of the day, is to the point. Why would he really want to create another organization? At the same time, he might have wanted to keep his teachings intact by passing them along to an inner circle, the disciples. I am not sure he thought that even they had understood what he was saying, though.

 

The modern church is concerned with how you live your life, and that is the bottom line. And, most importantly, it is according to the standards of social convention in this society, and most definitely not the first century. Jesus has nothing to do with it. If you can ignore this fact, and only keep the parts of the service that are meaningful to you, great, but most people who have some integrity are eventually faced with the hard cold realization that they cannot.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

I personally doubt that Jesus ever said that verse in the Bible about "upon this rock I shall build my church.." .

 

I agree, and I always saw it, if he did say it, as spiritually. I read it as, 'This is the beginning of God's divinity on Earth, his spirit, and even hell will not be able to prevail over it'. That is how I saw it. I also could see it as, the actual RCC that was started, will be here until the end, in general, the Rock, it will still be standing to the end.

 

My disagreements come when the church see that, interpret that, and then say to themselves, "We are God's righteousness, judgment, and authority on Earth because we are the Rock", still standing, etc.

[Deva]

I personally doubt that Jesus ever said that verse in the Bible about "upon this rock I shall build my church.." .

 

I agree, and I always saw it, if he did say it, as spiritually. I read it as, 'This is the beginning of God's divinity on Earth, his spirit, and even hell will not be able to prevail over it'. That is how I saw it. I also could see it as, the actual RCC that was started, will be here until the end, in general, the Rock, it will still be standing to the end.

 

My disagreements come when the church see that, interpret that, and then say to themselves, "We are God's righteousness, judgment, and authority on Earth because we are the Rock", still standing, etc.

 

That's right, it could be taken in a spiritual sense, but it seems that from the beginning there was a faction, or a group of churches that wanted to use it as a rationale for saying we have the sole authority and the rest of you churches (some of whom I believe were led by women) do not. This all happened in the first century and it would have been interesting to see how it happened.

[R. S. Martin]

Your answer was a simple one, but far from the reality of it. One hates the other, or one says the other is hellbound, or one says that a few are hellbound, or one doesn't help the other because they are 'different'.

 

 

I have not been following your threads so I don't know your situation. Sorry for the bad luck you're having right now--hope it goes better soon. Concerning the religious situation, however, I fail to understand why you expect a lot of sympathy from exChristians.

 

Many exers went through a phase of being unhappy with the church for the very reasons Abi has specified, yet stayed Christian for a time, sometimes years. It's mentioned often in deconversion testimonials. I reckon it's from this commonality that empathy could arise, remembering being in that place and offering thoughts on that struggle.

 

Phanta

 

Thanks for explaining. This is probably not a thread for me.

[FreeLily]

 

For what it's worth, I feel the same, and this is part of why I attend the local Quaker group more than the local UU group which seems financially desperate for my participation (there are three UUs and this it the closest...I prefer the one that is outside of my immediate region...amazing group!). The Quakers NEVER stress money or attendance. They just welcome and support and suggest areas I might like to grow in.

 

....

 

I agree. I love philosophy and understanding different religious beliefs, and the very stuff you talk about bugs me, too. It would bother me from any group, but is worst with Christians because that was where I got my indoctrination, so my guilty emotions get triggered even as I see the manipulation. Not so enjoyable a learning experience.

 

Thanks for mentioning other "organized" options like UUs and Quakers. I also agree that there are at least three sides of every "church:" its creed and principles, and its power structure, and its social structure. You can walk into any UU, Methodist, or Catholic church and get the same basic fare on Sunday morning. But if the sermons are lackluster, the music is off-key, and no one ever invites your for coffee, why keep going? Let's face it, people are looking for a little more from a church these days.

 

The megachurches don't lure crowds in with fire and brimstone preaching. But throw in a killer band, free child care, primo business contacts, and a Starbuck's, and they'll come back. And with our society so mobile, a church is one place you can walk into in a strange city and find a group of people who share your spiritual/philosophical worldview. It's a good place to start for many.

 

I always kind of liked going to church even as my beliefs evolved beyond Christianity. It was a chance to tune out the world and think about life. But the religion part of it so chafed me that I didn't go for more than 10 years. I'm fortunate to have finally located a UU church nearby with both a stable leadership and some really nice people. Oh, and a killer band

 

Guilting people into church attendance and tithing is the strategy of the desperate. A healthy church shouldn't have to do that, regardless of denomination.

[Shyone]

 

Maybe those that need church really have a lack of faith in Jesus?

 

Is the glass half empty, or half full?

I think that people without churches have technical problems. When they ask for advice or guidance, as in "What do you think we should do?", the answer is usually silence. Someone has to "figure out" what Jesus would say if He could speak, and there you go back down the road to a "speaker for God" who is human, fallible, and is hearing voices.

[oddbird1963]

Butts in seats, coin in the collection plates. That's the purpose of church.

 

All other activities are games of percentages to keep the butts and the bucks coming in.

 

I'm not saying that all people in the church are aware of this game of percentages, but they fulfill the role to keep bucks and bottoms rolling in.

 

Increase number of activities, features, "product" differentiation, etc. by X and expect offerings and attendance to increase by a general percentage.

 

Have meetings. Think of more activities, features, marketing slogans, etc. to keep offerings and attendance at the same level or maybe even experience growth!

 

Wrap it in theological bows and ribbons and biblical justifications and you have an attendance and offering machine.

[Franko47]

When you're looking for a higher degree of meaning and philosophical commentary, or even an intellectual one, you seldom find it in a church with a minister or pastor who is giving watered-down sermons for what he feels is the average-minded member.

 

I used to get a distinct spiritual feeling at church, but there was nothing in the sermons that I ever felt was that profound or thought-provoking. In fact, I would make continous mental notes of where I thought the sermon sounded contrived, and how I could present such ideas better. For me, church was mostly a social thing.

 

Follow your own thinking, Abi. There isn't anybody more qualified than yourself that can decide how to approach your faith. A church constitutes power; the people running it like to exercise that power. It's human nature. Look at the RCC. Holy cow.

 

The only demands you have to worry about are the ones you make of yourself and what you interpret are from God. And in the second case, viewer discretion is advised.

 

Peace.

[chefranden]

You should have bold the part right before that' let us consider one another to stir up love and good works'. What about Jesus warnings of 'gatherings'? Does church stir up love and good works? I have heard for years here that it doesn't, and experienced it not to in my own church attendance. Not to say it doesn't, but does it in the fullest to what the Hebrew writer meant it to be..?

 

Well, then what does this tell you?

 

It tells you that it is all bullshit. God can't even run his own organization. If it is supposed to be the people, then you may as well join the Masons or just your local tavern. There is nothing in the Church because there is nothing up there, or where ever God is supposed to be these days.

 

Also if is just the people that are to "stir up", and there is no stirring up, then what the hell have you been doing? Stop being a pew sitter and stir. Stop blaming it on "those people". As far as Jesus/God is concerned the buck stops at your desk.

[chefranden]

 

I guess I'm scared it would turn into bureaucracy, whether in my life, or my successor. I believe everything begins with a bit of truth to it, but over time, usually turns into whatever the human mind wants it to be. Everything has a root, substance, core value, to only be widened through time. I see the church in this scenario, started with a truth, or core; widened to what it is today, because the simple truth is that the leader left 2000 years ago, and Christians have done the approving, appointing, and judging since.

 

No the Church didn't start with anymore truth than the Kiwanis did. The Church follows the course of any successful organization of humans because it is nothing special. No real god in the form of a real savior started it. The leader and people started it. The leader and his disciples died 2000 years ago. What ever you might start would also be started by people. Your Church wouldn't be any more pure or true than any other.

 

 

I find it funny that Jesus never said, ''build a great empire, destroy all the pagan gods, kill those who break gods commands, etc. This is a good example as well. We have Jesus, then the disciples, the Paul's movement, then the RCC and the rest of the world in Christian domination.

 

Well actually he did tell folks to destroy pagan gods and kill those who break gods commands. Try to remember that Jesus is Yahweh and Yahweh is Jesus. Unless you are starting a new religion. And if you are, why are you bitching about the old one? And why bother with Jesus at all. You be the savior. Maybe it will work this time.

 

 

Now, Jesus was himself, not trying to war with anyone or setup an earthly kingdom in his life, preaching, healing people. Then we have the disciples, confused, doing what they may to bring Christ into relevance to Romans and Jews, having a oneness in group and following, preaching and spreading the word about Christ.

 

You know this crap is just in your head don't you? This "oneness" is a construct taking place in your imagination.

 

I believe the true message of Christ was meant for the individual, willed for the millions, and in the end, given to anyone that cared to have it, abundantly.

 

If this is true then what the hell are you bitching about? You must be one of the few who care to have it. Tuck it in your back pocket, and carry on. It isn't your fault that Jesus/god didn't know shit about human psychology.

 

Your rant suggests that you don't have "it" abundantly. These "church people" are taking some if "it" from you, or you are giving some of "it" to them. Whatever the reason abundance has eluded you.

[chefranden]

... As I said earlier, I do believe God willed the church to be in its current status. I believe God willed that because of how we are already as people, we are needy, emotional, dependent, social creatures...

 

Again, what is your bitch? Are you in rebellion against God? If God wants it this way, and if it is this way, you ought to be rejoicing. You are putting yourself in the place of Lucifer here. "Hey, God! You are screwing it up! Now here is what you do..."

 

You have done a lot of study in the past couple of years, but you appear not to have done any thinking about what you've studied. You've learned a lot of variables but you haven't plugged the variables into the basic formula: If X then Y. For example: If God is in control, then what I see is what God wants, or if what I see is not what God wants, then God is not in control.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Well, then what does this tell you?

 

It tells you that it is all bullshit. God can't even run his own organization. If it is supposed to be the people, then you may as well join the Masons or just your local tavern. There is nothing in the Church because there is nothing up there, or where ever God is supposed to be these days.

 

Also if is just the people that are to "stir up", and there is no stirring up, then what the hell have you been doing? Stop being a pew sitter and stir. Stop blaming it on "those people". As far as Jesus/God is concerned the buck stops at your desk.

 

But you said it is all bullshit Why are you encouraging me to be a 'good stirrer' if it is all bullshit?

 

I think people will avoid any words, and people will find any words to stand firm on church attendance.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Your rant suggests that you don't have "it" abundantly. These "church people" are taking some if "it" from you, or you are giving some of "it" to them. Whatever the reason abundance has eluded you.

 

Did you read any of the posts in this thread Chef

[Brakeman]

Well I think xtians want other xtians to come to their churches for personal validation. "If lots of people come to your church, then you must be right in your positions", they think. Not joining them is a slap in their face, as basically saying that they are doing something wrong. That's why xtians prefer any religion over atheism. If you at least believe in SOME god, then you aren't thinking that xtians are retarded, like atheists do.

[chefranden]

 

 

Your rant suggests that you don't have "it" abundantly. These "church people" are taking some if "it" from you, or you are giving some of "it" to them. Whatever the reason abundance has eluded you.

 

Did you read any of the posts in this thread Chef

 

I read them all so far.

[chefranden]

 

 

Well, then what does this tell you?

 

It tells you that it is all bullshit. God can't even run his own organization. If it is supposed to be the people, then you may as well join the Masons or just your local tavern. There is nothing in the Church because there is nothing up there, or where ever God is supposed to be these days.

 

Also if is just the people that are to "stir up", and there is no stirring up, then what the hell have you been doing? Stop being a pew sitter and stir. Stop blaming it on "those people". As far as Jesus/God is concerned the buck stops at your desk.

 

But you said it is all bullshit Why are you encouraging me to be a 'good stirrer' if it is all bullshit?

 

I think people will avoid any words, and people will find any words to stand firm on church attendance.

 

If you recognize it as all bullshit, then you will do nothing. However you do not yet recognize you are only fooling yourself. You suppose that there is something wrong with the people who are not living up to your imagined standard.

 

But if you try to act on your beliefs you stand a better chance of recognizing the bullshit, because the beliefs don't work.

 

If you sit and whine and don't test your beliefs you stand a better chance of remaining in the darkness, because the beliefs remain untested.

 

Thus I challange you to act on your beliefs

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Well, then what does this tell you?

 

It tells you that it is all bullshit. God can't even run his own organization. If it is supposed to be the people, then you may as well join the Masons or just your local tavern. There is nothing in the Church because there is nothing up there, or where ever God is supposed to be these days.

 

Also if is just the people that are to "stir up", and there is no stirring up, then what the hell have you been doing? Stop being a pew sitter and stir. Stop blaming it on "those people". As far as Jesus/God is concerned the buck stops at your desk.

 

But you said it is all bullshit Why are you encouraging me to be a 'good stirrer' if it is all bullshit?

 

I think people will avoid any words, and people will find any words to stand firm on church attendance.

 

If you recognize it as all bullshit, then you will do nothing. However you do not yet recognize you are only fooling yourself. You suppose that there is something wrong with the people who are not living up to your imagined standard.

 

But if you try to act on your beliefs you stand a better chance of recognizing the bullshit, because the beliefs don't work.

 

If you sit and whine and don't test your beliefs you stand a better chance of remaining in the darkness, because the beliefs remain untested.

 

Thus I challange you to act on your beliefs

 

 

How do you not know if I have already acted and tested my beliefs and they passed with flying colors and I just don't talk about it around here because of all the personal disasters that many here have been through to feel like they see no God? Maybe I am being humble.

[Skankboy]

How do you not know if I have already acted and tested my beliefs and they passed with flying colors and I just don't talk about it around here because of all the personal disasters that many here have been through to feel like they see no God? Maybe I am being humble.

I think it's a fairly safe assumption on our part as we did much the same thing and came up with a diametrically oppossed answer. Perhaps our criteria was incorrect though. What criteria did you use to test you beliefs?

[chefranden]

How do you not know if I have already acted and tested my beliefs and they passed with flying colors and I just don't talk about it around here because of all the personal disasters that many here have been through to feel like they see no God? Maybe I am being humble.

 

I can only go by what you write. I'm only answering your OP.

 

Though if you want to play this game; how do I know that you are not a child porn watching pedophile priest?

[Abiyoyo]

How do you not know if I have already acted and tested my beliefs and they passed with flying colors and I just don't talk about it around here because of all the personal disasters that many here have been through to feel like they see no God? Maybe I am being humble.

I think it's a fairly safe assumption on our part as we did much the same thing and came up with a diametrically oppossed answer. Perhaps our criteria was incorrect though. What criteria did you use to test you beliefs?

 

 

How do you not know if I have already acted and tested my beliefs and they passed with flying colors and I just don't talk about it around here because of all the personal disasters that many here have been through to feel like they see no God? Maybe I am being humble.

 

I can only go by what you write. I'm only answering your OP.

 

Though if you want to play this game; how do I know that you are not a child porn watching pedophile priest?

 

I really don't know what to say here about acting on my beliefs. I don't even know if what I believe would be 'acts' you guys would consider legit?

 

Chef, I feel like I have acted on my beliefs.

 

Skank, I don't really know if I want my foundation of belief trashed online, so I would rather not talk about it in detail. All I can say is that it's said traditionally, if you do good, you will get good. If you do bad, you will get bad. But, that was not so for Job, nor Jesus; except the reward(s) after the afflictions?

 

I can't tell you some great story of how I went from bad person to super good and righteous. I was a normal person, going along life, doing my thing, thinking a certain way; to religious, concerned with the opposites of life, and my thoughts were never the same.

 

I guess in a way, my transformation of how I used to be into what I am today is my acts on belief; but it's not necessarily looked at as super good righteous guy.