Paul, Did He Believe That The Resurrection Of Jesus, Was A Spiritual Resurrection, Or Did He Believe It Was A Bodily One Like The Gospels Record

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Did Paul, like Robert Price and Richard Carrier argue, believe that Jesus wasn't resurrected in a bodily form or did Paul believe that Jesus rose in the same form that the gospels portray.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

I know this sounds like a Christian question, I just wanted to get some non christian opinion on the subject since, it would be a major contradiction.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

I know this sounds like a Christian question, I just wanted to get some non christian opinion on the subject since, it would be a major contradiction.

 

Mods can you delete this topic

[Antlerman]

I know this sounds like a Christian question, I just wanted to get some non christian opinion on the subject since, it would be a major contradiction.

 

Mods can you delete this topic

Why? It's a good topic. I've read Carrier's take on it, and am interested in others input on this.

 

For myself, I see don't see Paul as subscribing to a bodily resurrection. The Gospels are a later elaboration on this theme. Curious what others have to say on this.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

yeah cool I agree with carrier and price myself, just wasn't sure if others were interested but I guess they are never mind.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

1 Corinthians 15

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

 

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

 

There is no distinction given about the means in which Jesus appeared to the 12 or to Paul himself. Paul's description of his meeting with Jesus is a vision so this implies the others were a vision also. But not necessarily.

 

 

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

Most of this seems to be talking about what Christians call the Rapture. It does seem to say that those who are raised from the dead will be raised as Christ was raised and that Christ will reign over all dominion. I'll be honest and say this passage above is confusing and I don't know the scholarly interpretation of it. This is just my musings as I read.

 

29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

"Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

 

This is the whole focus of the resurrection. If there is no resurrection, there is no Christianity. But what kind of resurrection? It talks about that next.

 

 

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

 

50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

55"Where, O death, is your victory?

Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

This is the crux of the matter. He says they are to be raised in a spiritual body. That the physical cannot go to heaven but needs a spiritual body to dwell there. This to me indicates not a physical resurrection but a spiritual one, and he uses the resurrection of Jesus to illustrate it. He uses his testimony of Jesus as evidence, when he never saw a physical resurrection, or even likely ever saw Jesus in life. It also references more weird rapture like descriptions. My church simply preached that this would be an instantaneous event that everyone experienced to be then judged for their eternal resting place. I don't really care about all that. All I see is a description of a spiritual body that lives beyond death that the faithful are raised through Christ to be perfect beings in order to dwell in heaven. This was written because the people thought Jesus would be coming back more or less right away and rule God's Kingdom on earth. The gospels quote Jesus as having said as much but the rumor could have existed without his starting it. People were upset that some of them were dying before Jesus returned. Paul is reassuring them that the dead are raised in a spiritual body in the same manner Jesus was raised. He emphasizes that there will be a time when Jesus does come back still but in his new body not his old one. He also speaks of this as though some people will be alive to see it "we will not all be asleep but we will all be changed". Paul is writing to a church in Corinth, not to Jack Van Impe here.

 

In conclusion I think there is evidence that Paul did not preach a physical resurrection of Jesus or at least he doesn't seem to mention it. He never mentions an empty tomb or anything like that. His testimony of witnessing the resurrection is given as much credence as the apostles which can be explained by Paul's ego but I think also implies that Paul thinks he witnessed the same thing they did.