Five-Point Calvinism

[GiantBear]

Normally Calvinists/Reformed believe that all unbelievers do all things for ultimately selfish reasons.

 

My former Christianity was Reformed most of the time. My parents professed Christianity a little bit and even tho I wasn't supposed to judge.....it seemed like they were not saved. Especially my dad. There was no way to get around that. Except to not think about it.

 

My relationship with my parents was always strained. We were dysfunctional. (Mostly because of other family members. Not getting into that.) But I know that they have always loved me.

 

It hurts me a lot to think how Reformed theology was the lens through which I saw people. Especially with my parents. I believe that almost all parents love their children very deeply. Even when they are far from perfect parents. Most parents want to please their kids more than vice-versa. Think about their kids more than vice-versa. My parents definitely loved me.

 

Years ago at Community College, my Reformed Inter-Varsity director and I were talking in the hall. He asked me some casual question about home life/parents. I answered "okay" or something. He must have read into my answer. He said, "But they care about you, right?"

 

It was one of my many Christian-cognitive-dissonance moments.

Why is this Reformed guy telling me that my parents care about anything?

Isn't each of their actions ultimately selfish?

Is this the first time I've realized I don't trust my parents because of a doctrine?

 

This is extremely hard to think about now. My dad passed away one year ago. The anniversary is less than two weeks away. Years of needless, added mistrust before his death because of a doctrine.

 

GiantBear

[♦ ficino ♦]

Giant Bear, I am angry with you over the effects of Calvinist doctrine. I used to be a Calvinist. From what I remember, they would say that any good an unsaved person does is the outcome of Common Grace, by which God restrains the effects of depravity and brings some good through the actions of depraved humanity. But since regeneration, faith, love, etc. in the Elect are themselves all the results of saving grace, then your parents' love for you wouldn't have been truly their own action, whether or not they were saved. It seems as though there is only one entity in the universe for the Calvinist that loves out of its own spontaneous action, and that's God - for all the rest, they love only as the byproduct of God's prevenient grace -- however much the Calvinist wants to say that the creature is responsible for its actions and therefore, that its actions are its own in some way.

 

To all this I imitate Big Mama in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof: "I say crap, just like Big Daddy."

 

Having come out of Calvinism, you can I hope think back to all the good things that happened between your father and you. There isn't any way you should blame yourself for internalizing the spirit of Calvinism - it is to blame. At least you've seen it now for what it is.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Giant Bear, I am angry with you over the effects of Calvinist doctrine. 

 

Yikes, realized possibly confusing wording! I hope it's obvious that I share your anger, GB, not that I'm angry at you.

 

For the glory of TULIP, Fic.

[GiantBear]

Yikes, realized possibly confusing wording!  I hope it's obvious that I share your anger, GB, not that I'm angry at you.

 

For the glory of TULIP, Fic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

ficino,

 

Thanks for the kind words.

You described the logic of Calvinism really well.

 

O, how it sucked to believe that everybody is a piece of shit, but that God will save a few pieces of shit for his glory!

 

But I was lucky/blessed to have some really good times with my dad. The last 3 years before he died were filled with religious doubts from me anyways. Calvinism had lost its flavor to me. Generic Christianity helped me look at my parents, myself and everybody a little better. Leaving Generic Christianity was priceless. And another story altogether.

 

Thanks Again

&

Fuck Calvinism,

GiantBear

[Guest queen annie]

That's awful--I didn't know what the theology behind calvinism was--I knew it was something about the elect--and yet they still believed in hell. That's all I knew. I'm sorry that it made you feel some regret, but I'm glad you're out of it, too.

 

Having lost my own dad several years back, I can tell you that it's hard that first anniversary of departure no matter what....I think regret is just a natural part of grief--especially when there is love and positive things to be missed. We never feel bad about things to do with people we really don't miss or care for. I still miss my dad, and once in a great while still feel bad about some random remembrance, but mostly my missing him is something that is a good thing--after a while the memories are a comfort rather than an unbearable sorrow. I hope it gets better for you, too.

 

I think that the love parents have for their children is, in all but the most dysfunctional cases (of which yours obviously wasn't, cause you know they loved you) is probably the most pure and unselfish love of all the types of love humanity partakes in. I'm not sure how that could be missed--it's not like we are not capable of love because only God is--we are capable of love because we were made in His likeness--we were given the gift to love at the same time we were given hearts and blood to pump through them.

 

Geez....that's the whole purpose of the whole thing, anyway, isn't it? Love Love Love

 

That's all we've got.

[Guest VanTilthinker]

 

If pressed I would still say I hold to the Calvinistic doctrines [as properly understood]. The problem with many who hold to these doctrines is that they do not properly hold to them. They want to put God in a box so they use this system to try to do so...and ultimately fail. God is infinite and will not be put in our boxes.

The truth of Calvinism is that God predestines the free choices of men. For someone who has placed man's finite reasoning as the ultimate authority in the universe, this will not do.

Giant Bear, I am angry with you over the effects of Calvinist doctrine.  I used to be a Calvinist.  From what I remember, they would say that any good an unsaved person does is the outcome of Common Grace, by which God restrains the effects of depravity and brings some good through the actions of depraved humanity.  But since regeneration, faith, love, etc. in the Elect are themselves all the results of saving grace, then your parents' love for you wouldn't have been truly their own action, whether or not they were saved.  It seems as though there is only one entity in the universe for the Calvinist that loves out of its own spontaneous action, and that's God - for all the rest, they love only as the byproduct of God's prevenient grace -- however much the Calvinist wants to say that the creature is responsible for its actions and therefore, that its actions are its own in some way.

 

To all this I imitate Big Mama in Cat on a Hot Tin Roof:  "I say crap, just like Big Daddy."

 

Having come out of Calvinism, you can I hope think back to all the good things that happened between your father and you.  There isn't any way you should blame yourself for internalizing the spirit of Calvinism - it is to blame.  At least you've seen it now for what it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Kuroikaze]

 

If pressed I would still say I hold to the Calvinistic doctrines [as properly understood]. The problem with many who hold to these doctrines is that they do not properly hold to them.  They want to put God in a box so they use this system to try to do so...and ultimately fail.  God is infinite and will not be put in our boxes.

The truth of Calvinism is that God predestines the free choices of men. For someone who has placed man's finite reasoning as the ultimate authority in the universe, this will not do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You know what....

 

 

"God predestines the free choices of men"

 

that is quite posibly the most stupid thing I have ever heard anyone say....and I have heard a lot of stupid things in my life.

 

that statement is a contradictions in terms, it is imposible to predestine free choice.

but you might say, God is beyond human understanding so he can do the imposible.

 

there are several logical problems with this statement

 

1. the easist problem is that, if God is so far beyond human understanding why do we even discuss him, this statement is only a hairs breath from Diesm. If he is beyond our understanding then the word God has no meaning because there is no way to define the word God in any meaninful way. In which case we might as well be practical athiests.

 

2. you need to understand the complexities of language, C.S. Lewis, who was a christian apologist by the way, points out that there are two ways of defining imposible

 

Something that is totally imposible, or things that are imposible unless some factor changes.

 

For instance if you say it is imposible for me to see the tree on the other side of the house, what you really mean is that it is imposible UNLESS I get up and go around to the other side of the house.

 

However when you say that God can both give me freewill, and withhold free will from me at the same time, that is totally imposible. not because of a limitation on Gods part but because omnipitance does not make absudities posible.

 

Affixing the Phrase "God can" to a statement is not a licence to turn off your brain.

 

God cannot predestine freewill because those concepts are polar oposites, this is not an apeal to logic, but an apeal to laungauge...you can't just redifine words any way you want. those two words are not compatible.

 

And by the way...you can't just back off and say that human laungage is too limited to really discribe whats going on. that lands you right back in the first problem...if God cannot be discribed by human launguage then why do you discribe him with words at all? Oh and so much for the Bible being inerrant, since its written in "imperfect" human languages.

 

 

 

P.S. have you actually read Calvinist theology? The idea that God predestines our freewill is much closer to Armenian theology than Calvinist IMO

[♦ ficino ♦]

Dear VantilThinker,

 

I am led to reply:

 

"I say crap, just like Big Daddy."

 

Love the way you cut through the self-contradictions, Kuroikaze.

[Ouroboros]

The truth of Calvinism is that God predestines the free choices of men.

Huh?

[♦ ficino ♦]

 

 

The truth of Calvinism is that God predestines the free choices of men. For someone who has placed man's finite reasoning as the ultimate authority in the universe, this will not do.

 

As they have been taught by Van Til and others, Calvinists tend to reply with accusations of moral failure when someone points out incoherence in their system of thought.

[GiantBear]

Hey Y'all,

 

I live in a highly Reformed area (stalkers can narrow my location down quite a bit on this one)

and having gone to a Reformed church, etc.....

 

SO MANY people who were RAISED REFORMED and GO TO REFORMED CHURCHES and WENT TO REFORMED SCHOOLS play off Calvinism the way that VanTilthinker did. They do it to survive emotionally, I'm sure.

 

In fact, it is normal to hear people in this theologian-dense tradition say "I am Reformed except for predestination. Don't agree with that one. Not that it is bad or anything. Doctrine is relative. To say otherwise is the same thing as racism. I sure do love the Left Behind Series. Catholics are like us in all important ways. Pentecostals are superior Christians, because they love God more. Contemporary Christian music is what Jesus would listen to. God is angry with the sin and not the sinner. The Four Spiritual Laws is all you need to know. Jesus is a Republican. O, no, wait he is a Democrat."

 

It is conflicting for me whether I want these folks to believe in predestination for the sake of honesty. If Christianity were true and predestination were unchristian, then it would have to be opposed vehemently - not supported with tithes.

Of course, I want them to de-convert altogether. But ya know....

 

Done for now,

GiantBear

[Kuroikaze]

Dear VantilThinker,

 

I am led to reply:

 

"I say crap, just like Big Daddy."

 

Love the way you cut through the self-contradictions, Kuroikaze.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks, I try

 

Anyone else find hit and run posters funny? He didn't have the guts to make more than one post. Perhaps we scared him off

[All Gods Fail]

I posted this on another thread, but how anyone could use Calvin as a spiritual leader is utterly baffling. If there really is a hell, you can bet he and Martin Luther are roomies. I can think of few who deserve it more...

[Kuroikaze]

I posted this on another thread, but how anyone could use Calvin as a spiritual leader is utterly baffling. If there really is a hell, you can bet he and Martin Luther are roomies. I can think of few who deserve it more...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yeah, right down there with Agustine along with them...he was the first to teach predestination after all.

[HadouKen24]

Yeah, Luther was a major Augustinian.

 

There's a huge difference between them, though. I read the Confessions, and ended up really liking this Augustine guy. Luther, though... you read his stuff, and get the impression that he's a raving fanatical madman.

[Kuroikaze]

Yeah, Luther was a major Augustinian.

 

There's a huge difference between them, though. I read the Confessions, and ended up really liking this Augustine guy. Luther, though... you read his stuff, and get the impression that he's a raving fanatical madman.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

yeah, some of the stuff he said in confessions was good. What really made me hate Agustine was when I read his thoughts on human sexuality. Even back when I was a christian and I read him for one of my religion classes, I was like, what the hell is this guy smoking?

 

Had probably the most negative view sexuality of any theologin I've read. Basicly if you enjoyed it or did it for any reason besides procreation you were going to hell.

 

Of course I cut him some slack because his attitudes probably came from the fact that he was such a horny bastard before he converted.

 

 

Luther was pretty anti-semitic, and became even more so in his old age, that in itself is enough to piss me of with him.

 

Calvin, his favorite thing to say was "are you willing to be damned for the glory of God?" his entire theology is offensive.

[HadouKen24]

Both my parents are staunch Calvinists. I kinda grew up that way.

 

Needless to say, when I started questioning things, Calvinism was one of the first to go.