Say No Way To Yahweh!

[dB-Paradox]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

[mwc]

Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life?

My wife has said this to me. I would have rather been kicked in the balls.

 

mwc

[dB-Paradox]

I think it's easier to tell an adult in our lives (not that it makes it any better) but to tell a child would be the ultimate destruction. Just give the kid a gun so they can blow their own brains out!

[OpheliaGinger]

Churches don't ever stress that point.

[dB-Paradox]

Naturally, of course not! They teach all the pretty, flowered-up stuff and downplay all the bad stuff...until it comes time to argue with an atheist, then it's "We'll see who's laughing when you're buring in hell!"

[Vixentrox]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

True true. Any of our true Christians want to comment? Kathlene? Ordinary Clay?

[OrdinaryClay]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

[Vigile]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

 

Just another contradiction. You have to have a preconceived notion about what Jesus really meant before you can reach your conclusion on this or many other matters. An objective approach just leaves one confused.

[Vixentrox]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

You dismiss the clear words of hate because it doesn't suit you. How dare you to presume to assume he didn't mean hate. And if Jesus and the Father are One then Jesus is an atrocity committing despot. Just look at the Old Testament.

[dB-Paradox]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

True true. Any of our true Christians want to comment? Kathlene? Ordinary Clay?

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

[dB-Paradox]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

 

(Sorry, the above post was in response to the wrong person)

[OrdinaryClay]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

 

Just another contradiction. You have to have a preconceived notion about what Jesus really meant before you can reach your conclusion on this or many other matters. An objective approach just leaves one confused.

There is nothing preconceived about reading the words of Christ. You have to need and want to see a contradiction to find one there.

[Shyone]

There is nothing preconceived about reading the words of Christ. You have to need and want to see a contradiction to find one there.

Does the phrase "apparent contradiction" sound familiar to you?

 

IOW, passages that, to any rational and reasonable human are obviously contradictory, but the Christian must find to be consistent?

 

Apologies that have to add to the text in order to explain the text, when the text itself is quite easy to understand, mean that the apologist is adding to the meaning to make a contradiction go away.

 

Say a "black cup is white". Contradiction, no?

 

But imagine that perhaps the cup was in the darkness and therefore looked black, but in the light it appears white. No contradiction?

 

Or say, imgagine that perhaps the cup is a white cup painted black.

 

Or say, perhaps, [insert your own apology here].

 

For the Christian, there are no contradictions because you cannot allow for contradictions - even if they are there.

[mwc]

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Why jump to G.Matthew?

 

Since this seems to be an issue of "context" let's just go ahead and post the whole damn thing:

Luke 14

 

26 If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

 

27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

 

28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build, and was not able to finish.'

 

31 Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace.

 

33 So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

We have a couple of bookend verses that seem to sum it all up. Give up everything or you won't be able to complete the given task. And from the examples given within it would seem that only a short-sighted fool would do something like that.

 

But if you like we can "soften" the whole issue by jumping to the theology of G.Matthew:

Matthew 10

 

37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

 

38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

 

39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

See? He doesn't mean "hate" but "love less." You have to "love" those people less. Look within yourself and love them less. If not? You're not worthy. He doesn't love you a little less but just finds you "not worthy" outright. How odd. Seems it would be reciprocal but it's not. You either love him the most of anyone or you're just not worthy.

 

I guess that's why he's willing to say those "loving" words about hanging millstones around the necks of people that mess with those who believe in him. They're just not worthy. So caring. Truly a "deep love for all"...who love him more than everyone else. Otherwise you'd be better off with the millstone and a drowning.

 

mwc

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

The Old Testament God is alot nicer than Christ/the NT God. Far less evil.

 

Instead of sending people to sheol after he commits genocide against them, he has them burn forever for moral sins.

[chefranden]

Just face it Clay, my friend. The bible is full of confusion like this. What one author giveth another author taketh away. Why do you suppose there are so many denominations? Because one group reads the same book in a different way. Now why would that be??? Because the SOB is confusing that's why. Not even prayer by the bestest guy ever managed to straighten this out.

 

Hell, the bible even gives multiple ways to salvation from just believing in the case of the thief, to immersion according to Peter. Ezekiel says all you have to do is obey a few simple rules for salvation meaning you are your own savior. Paul says you can obey all you want, but you are still just a rotting corpse. Hell, wars were fought for ages across Europe over these things, and the US founders fixed the constitution to prevent the same thing happening here.

 

When you say the someone is perverting the message of scripture, what you mean is that they are fooling with your accepted patches on the problem.

[Kuroikaze]

There is nothing preconceived about reading the words of Christ. You have to need and want to see a contradiction to find one there.

 

Would you really claim that you have no preconceived notions? I would be willing to bet that you had been in church, and talked to Christians before you ever read the bible, and those churches and people had lots to say about the "proper" interpretation of scripture.

 

ANY objective study of the bible will reveal that much of it makes no sense, you need to be actively AVOIDING the contractions to NOT see them.

I spent the last few years of my christian beliefs trying desperately to make sense of apparent contradictions; I was certain, as a Christian, that I would be able to find the answers. The point being, that I did not WANT to see contradictions. I desperately wanted to be convinced that there were none.

 

After searching to several years, and speaking to pastors and scholars, I realized that these "knowledgeable" people knew no more than me. They were just willing to accept as valid, answers which seemed absurd to me. I tried, but i just could not do it, and thus my first big step away from christian belief was taken when I rejected the notion of biblical inerrancy.

[Shyone]

There is nothing preconceived about reading the words of Christ. You have to need and want to see a contradiction to find one there.

 

Would you really claim that you have no preconceived notions? I would be willing to bet that you had been in church, and talked to Christians before you ever read the bible, and those churches and people had lots to say about the "proper" interpretation of scripture.

 

ANY objective study of the bible will reveal that much of it makes no sense, you need to be actively AVOIDING the contractions to NOT see them.

I spent the last few years of my christian beliefs trying desperately to make sense of apparent contradictions; I was certain, as a Christian, that I would be able to find the answers. The point being, that I did not WANT to see contradictions. I desperately wanted to be convinced that there were none.

 

After searching to several years, and speaking to pastors and scholars, I realized that these "knowledgeable" people knew no more than me. They were just willing to accept as valid, answers which seemed absurd to me. I tried, but i just could not do it, and thus my first big step away from christian belief was taken when I rejected the notion of biblical inerrancy.

OrdinaryClay would have been an exceptional Muslim had he been born in the "correct" circumstances.

 

Maybe it's not too late.

[dagnarus]

Churches don't ever stress that point.

 

Mine did. It was repeatedly stressed that loyalty and love for God was more important than any family bonds, and that any love which we had for other's outside of God's love was potentially damaging to God's move. Of course this was somewhat rationalized by the concept that when we put God first we can love our family more because of God's love.

[dagnarus]

Every true Christian must put god first. That's what it says in the OT and again, Jesus reiterates it in the NT (with the whole 'hate your mother and father, and wife and children' thing). How many of you true Christians are willing to abandon your children/loved ones to the point of 'hatred' just to put god first? Could you leave your children on a stranger's door step on a cold winter's day and walk away without looking back? Could you slay your children at night while they are fast asleep? Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life? If you are willing to do such things, shame on you! The story of Abraham shows just how deluded Christianity wants Christians to be. I, for one, say NO WAY! And you can, too! Walk away from god and never look back! NEVER!!!!

You distorted the teachings of Christ. Have you read the New Testament? If you have you know that Christ teaches a deep love for all. So obviously to interpret Luke 14:26 as being hate is a twisted interpretation.

 

Mat 18:6

(6) But whoever shall offend one of these little ones who believes in Me, it would be better for him that an ass's millstone were hung around his neck, and he be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

 

(Sorry, the above post was in response to the wrong person)

 

No contradiction here, if you love your children more than God you might stumble them, simple.

[Objet_trouve24]

Churches don't ever stress that point.

 

Mine did. I went to a church that has since spawned a couple mega churches, and isn't doing too bad itself. We were taught that if god told you to kill your children, you should do so without question, and I believed my parents would, and my parents believed they would. You know, like Abraham. Or Ria Ramkissoon.

[dB-Paradox]

No contradiction here, if you love your children more than God you might stumble them, simple.

I understand there's no contradiction. In fact, Jesus is basing his heachings on Abraham's example of his love toward God. So if anything, it's totally consistent with OT scripture, also. The word hate is simply used to accent how much MORE the Christian is to love Christ than anyone else, even the closest of loved ones. But my question was, how many Christians could actually do it? Even as a hard core fundie, I could not have agreed to kill my wife for the sake of some god's jealousy! That's just stupid, and it messes with the mind! And loving your children more than God might possibly cause them to stumble or not receive God's love as much? Whacked! No offense, but that's a horrible thing to say. Many atheists love their children, and their atheist chilren love their children. No need to prove a love by abandoning them for the sake of some "higher" love! Let me be an atheist Paul for a moment...

 

For if you love that which has not shown love to the same degree to which you feel love toward those who are tangible in your life, how can we say that we have love? For if love is shown by commanding we show love to a degree which is not shown by that substance of love, toward that substance, then we have not really loved. We have shown no love. For we are sinners in love's sight. We do no right in the light of this substance's sight, and we are evil, unless we show love by which we have been shown love, for which we cannot see. And then all can be made pure. For before we loved, we were loved, and thus we show the love of those who showed us love. The true love of those who have first shown us love is greater than the commanded love of that substance for which there is no love shown.

 

There ya go! Simple!

[OnceConvinced]

One of the things you do as a Christian is seek answers and justifications to the contradictions and evils of the bible. But you always have to have the mindset that God is loving, merciful and just. Also that the bible is the infallible word of God. Nothing can violate that, so you tackle it with that mindset all the time. Clay here is no different. There just can't be contradictions. God just can't be evil. The Bible just can't be wrong.

 

I was a Christian for over 30 years of my life, a third generation Christian. I know how the game works. Someone comes up with a cool answer/justification, you adopt that answer. Sometimes you'll come up with them on your own accord. But every time you hear a new one, you compare it to your existing one. If it's a better argument, you scrap the old one and adopt the new one. That's the way it works. In other words you just take whatever seems most convincing to you and go with it. Really you're only kidding yourself though. The fact still remains that the bible is still full of contradictions and crap. There's just no way to avoid that fact unless you remain with your Christian glasses on. You take them off and try to look at the bible without bias and your doomed to lose your faith, it's as simple as that.

[Realist]

Could you outright tell them that they will never be #1 in your life?

 

.... we were certainly told that! In fact on numerous occasions! I do grapple with that even to this day!

[dagnarus]

No contradiction here, if you love your children more than God you might stumble them, simple.

I understand there's no contradiction. In fact, Jesus is basing his heachings on Abraham's example of his love toward God. So if anything, it's totally consistent with OT scripture, also. The word hate is simply used to accent how much MORE the Christian is to love Christ than anyone else, even the closest of loved ones. But my question was, how many Christians could actually do it?

 

I doubt that many fundies would actually kill their child/wife like Abraham, unless they were actually clinically insane, that said I would say that an example of this behaviour would be fundamentalist parents who essentially abandon their gay children.

 

Even as a hard core fundie, I could not have agreed to kill my wife for the sake of some god's jealousy! That's just stupid, and it messes with the mind! And loving your children more than God might possibly cause them to stumble or not receive God's love as much? Whacked! No offense, but that's a horrible thing to say. Many atheists love their children, and their atheist chilren love their children. No need to prove a love by abandoning them for the sake of some "higher" love! Let me be an atheist Paul for a moment...

 

Say your, I don't know, let's say sister, was married to this abusive jerk, and he abused her and his children if she didn't focus all her love on him. Now you would obviously suggest to her that she get herself and the children away from him, correct? Now let's change the parameters, let's say this abusive jerk, is say the king of the earth or some other stupid thing, and if she leaves him, he would be capable of easily hunting her down and torturing her and her children. Would it then be in the best interest of her and her children that she leave the douche? Actually it would probably be in her and her children's best interest that she think of the asshat as being a loving being, no matter how far from the truth of the matter that might be. Now consider that your average fundamentalist believes that God can choose to send them and/or anyone they love to an eternal fiery torture pit where they will suffer for all eternity. The fact that this God is a giant douche bag is besides the point. One of the reasons why looking at the huge inaccuracies of the bible were instrumental in my deconversion, I could believe in the douche bag God of the bible, but not that such an inaccurate book could be the word of God.

 

For if you love that which has not shown love to the same degree to which you feel love toward those who are tangible in your life, how can we say that we have love? For if love is shown by commanding we show love to a degree which is not shown by that substance of love, toward that substance, then we have not really loved. We have shown no love. For we are sinners in love's sight. We do no right in the light of this substance's sight, and we are evil, unless we show love by which we have been shown love, for which we cannot see. And then all can be made pure. For before we loved, we were loved, and thus we show the love of those who showed us love. The true love of those who have first shown us love is greater than the commanded love of that substance for which there is no love shown.

 

There ya go! Simple!

 

Agreed.