Isrealite And Heathen Prophets

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Anyone hear of Balaam the son of Beor, not only was he a prophet of the lord all the way in sinai, but apparently teleported between the area where Israel would be established and back to make sure his canaanite gods gave him the prophecy to give to his canaanite people. Apparently this guy was pretty busy. Wonder why the lard didn't think anything of it?

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=fpo3AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=aramaic+texts&lr=&as_brr=3&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

He seems to know about good old El, the Shadday/Shaddai gods but not about the lard YHWH. At least in that inscription.

(mistake, reading this wrong please delete thread lol)

 

The one verse made it look like he was an israelite.

[Shyone]

Anyone hear of Balaam the son of Beor, not only was he a prophet of the lord all the way in sinai, but apparently teleported between the area where Israel would be established and back to make sure his canaanite gods gave him the prophecy to give to his canaanite people. Apparently this guy was pretty busy. Wonder why the lard didn't think anything of it?

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=fpo3AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=aramaic+texts&lr=&as_brr=3&client=firefox-a&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

He seems to know about good old El, the Shadday/Shaddai gods but not about the lard YHWH. At least in that inscription.

(mistake, reading this wrong please delete thread lol)

 

The one verse made it look like he was an israelite.

Even if your thread is confused, there is still the problem of heathen "prophets". The "seers" of old and from other countries prophesied. Prophecy itself was a long tradition even before the Hebrews.

 

"The prophet, thus, is often associated with the priest, the shaman (a religious figure in primitive societies who functions as a healer, diviner, and possessor of psychic powers), the diviner (foreteller), and the mystic."

 

The Bible preserves this phenomenon when kings pit one group of prophets against another group. Eventually, prophecy outside of the religion is prohibited. If "psychic powers" are not real, but the tradition comes from ancient times, then the prophets and seers of the bible are fake too.

 

Some people will fall for anything.

[lunaticheathen]

Christianity likes to pretend it has a monopoly on so very much, when it really just borrowed everything from someone else along the line. "Prophesy", miracles, magic, "son of god", all of these were concepts of other religions WAY before the Jesus story showed up.

At times, it pisses me off. Christians celebrate holidays derived from "those heathens", just dressed up to plug Jeebus in it somehow, and sneer at my spirituality. They carry on traditions that came from pagans, and I just want to scream "you're WELCOME for your religion, ingrates!" But then I remember they just added piles of guilt and self-loathing, took out the beer, and are miserable. Then I laugh.

[Shyone]

Christianity likes to pretend it has a monopoly on so very much, when it really just borrowed everything from someone else along the line. "Prophesy", miracles, magic, "son of god", all of these were concepts of other religions WAY before the Jesus story showed up.

Yes, this is it! It was an epiphany for me when I realized that prophecy (and the rest) was not a gift from God, but a tradition passed down from ancient middle eastern religious beliefs.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Yes, this is it! It was an epiphany for me when I realized that prophecy (and the rest) was not a gift from God, but a tradition passed down from ancient middle eastern religious beliefs.

And the middle east's "thou shall conquer and thou shall win" prophecies are the most common. Though this text replaces YHWH with a goddess, if like some book I read suggestion is right (it's not, I know) that its refering to the moses story.

[Kerplunk]

There are two major conceptions of prophecy. The more popular and iconic conception understands prophets as a sort of diviner, or seer, or soothsayer who had the capacity to predict distant future events. The earliest prophets (Hebrew or not) were diviners. However, as the prophetic books develop, we see prophecy develop into its own phenomenon distinct from divination. With the rise of the monarchy in Israel and Judah, the prophet emerges primarily as a social commentator - meant to balance the power of the king (e.g. David and Nathan, Ahaz and Isaiah.) Their primary message was not to predict distant future events, but to critique their own generation and immediate subsequent generations.

 

It's foolish and anachronistic not to think that the Hebrew Scriptures and culture were influenced by surrounding Near Eastern nations.

 

-Kerplunk

[Shyone]

There are two major conceptions of prophecy. The more popular and iconic conception understands prophets as a sort of diviner, or seer, or soothsayer who had the capacity to predict distant future events. The earliest prophets (Hebrew or not) were diviners. However, as the prophetic books develop, we see prophecy develop into its own phenomenon distinct from divination. With the rise of the monarchy in Israel and Judah, the prophet emerges primarily as a social commentator - meant to balance the power of the king (e.g. David and Nathan, Ahaz and Isaiah.) Their primary message was not to predict distant future events, but to critique their own generation and immediate subsequent generations.

 

It's foolish and anachronistic not to think that the Hebrew Scriptures and culture were influenced by surrounding Near Eastern nations.

 

-Kerplunk

I would change your last sentence just a bit - below I moved the "not" closer to the "influenced." I think it's clearer that way. There is, then, no misunderstanding; the Hebrew scriptures are influenced by surrounding Near Eastern nations.

 

It's foolish and anachronistic to think that the Hebrew Scriptures and culture were NOT influenced by surrounding Near Eastern nations.

 

I don't see that being a social commentator makes the scriptures any more inspired than Fox News or MSNBC.

 

And they make predictions all the time.

[Kerplunk]

I would change your last sentence just a bit - below I moved the "not" closer to the "influenced." I think it's clearer that way. There is, then, no misunderstanding; the Hebrew scriptures are influenced by surrounding Near Eastern nations.

 

It's foolish and anachronistic to think that the Hebrew Scriptures and culture were NOT influenced by surrounding Near Eastern nations.

 

I don't see that being a social commentator makes the scriptures any more inspired than Fox News or MSNBC.

 

And they make predictions all the time.

 

 

Thanks, I was writing that in a hurry. I thought it sounded odd. Undoubtedly the Scriptures were influenced by other Near Eastern nations, at times representing the thoughts and practices of the times, and other times, outwardly rejecting said neighboring thoughts and practices.

 

Although the prophets are social commentators, they are divinely motivated social commentators - they remind the community to repent and devote themselves to the Law. Even the most naturalist prophets have a divine anchor.

 

I think the question of inspiration is one which needs to be grappled with. I would agree that the prophetic books do not seem to be inspired in the sense that God dictated what to say or write to the prophets or scribes. I think inspiration can be understood a looser, more liberal sense, which allows for a reciprocal interaction between God and human.

 

-Kerplunk

[Shyone]

I think the question of inspiration is one which needs to be grappled with. I would agree that the prophetic books do not seem to be inspired in the sense that God dictated what to say or write to the prophets or scribes. I think inspiration can be understood a looser, more liberal sense, which allows for a reciprocal interaction between God and human.

 

-Kerplunk

Of course, I approach the matter from the perspective that people do what they will, not what any God tells them to do. That would violate their Free Will!

 

And the minor fact that there is no god, but...

 

People write opinion pieces all the time. If Pat Robertson wrote down his criticism of the gays, and he said that 911, Katrina and worse is coming, he would be a prophet. He has an agenda, and almost any prophecy will come true, particularly if you are astute enough to use your eyes to see what is happening.

 

"And if the US doesn't execute all of the gays, terrible woes will befall them!" (list economic, personal catastrophic and other disasters likely to befall them. How about an earthquake in San Francisco!).

 

Likewise, ancient Hebrew prophets had an agenda. They wanted a theocracy. Just like they have in several middle eastern countries today. Prophets could prophecy about any of the great powers of the middle east coming to Jerusalem and attacking. It was inevitable. So they may as well attribute a cause for the disaster - and enter the prophet's agenda.

 

We don't have opposing viewpoints. They either didn't exist, or they weren't vocal, or their writings were lost or destroyed. Survivors and winners write history.

 

The ancients also had the advantage and luxury of writing many (if not most) their prophecies after the events.

 

Isaiah 1:1. The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem that Isaiah son of Amoz saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

 

It's a lot easier to hit the bullseye when you paint the target around the arrow.

 

So, I don't pay a lot of attention to windbags who say the said, "I'm warning you" when they're really saying, "I told you so" even if they didn't exactly say what they wrote down later. Know what I mean?

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

If anyonee has read ancient near eastern texts, you'll notice that many of their prophets have the same name or similar as biblical ones. You have to just wonder if those prophets were even really biblical? Seeing that the hebrew Tanakh wasn't written in ancient Israel.