Guest Thegoodbook Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 QUOTE(vargo @ Aug 7 2005, 09:13 AM)According to Christianity, Satan is the epitome and embodiment of all evil things, described as "the father of all lies" in the Catholic Church's Catechism (paragraph 391). It is his works that tempt humans into doing bad deeds. If something evil occurs, we can be assured that Satan had something to do with it. The History of Satan According to Catholicism, Satan only exists because God allows him to (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 395). This raises some serious issues about how righteous God can be if he allows evil to exist, but I digress. Satan, as the story goes, began as the angel Lucifer, who outrightly rejected God and rebelled against him. God cast Lucifer and those who followed him into Hell, a place of eternal torture and despair, where God was not present. Like any good propoganda machine, Christian authorities have made sure to limit the disenimation of information on the enemy (Satan) to what they want the public to know. For example, we are never told why Satan rebelled against God. We're never given his side of the story. Were Satan's reasons for rejecting God and attempting to overthrow him legitimate? From where I'm standing, they could certainly be considered valid if the authorities see fit to hide them from the general public. For example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the book that outlines Catholic beliefs in detail, has barely half a column in its index devoted to Satan and information on him, where as Jesus Christ has a full 6 pages! Sound like a propoganda machine to you, yet? Christian authorities have made some big mistakes with their anti-Satan propoganda machine, however. Since there is so little information available about Satan, there is no record of anything he's done or any way to connect events to him. Christians simply and lazily accredit evil occurences to Satan. A good example are the events of September 11. Within weeks, a doctored picture was floating around the internet showing Satan's face in the clouds of smoke and debris eminating from the two towers, thus unfairly making Satan out to be responsible for these tragedies. Satan vs. God The only evidence we have to conclude Satan's utter evil is God's word, and frankly, God's word isn't worth too much. He's shown a remarkable inconsistency in his actions and words, and he's hardly above lying or dishonest conduct. Straight after giving Moses the first set of Ten Commandments (which included "Thou shalt not kill"), he let Moses go ahead and order the Levites to go on a mass-murdering rampages, which they did, but only after he talked God out of killing all the people! According to 2 Thessolonians 2:11-12, God will send a strong illusion to people so that they will believe lies, so he can condemn everyone to Hell. After giving Moses the Ten Commandments, God orchestrated a litany of atrocities through isoltated commandments that are simply too great in number to list here. I suggest checking out the The Skeptic's Annotated Bible to see for yourself, specifically this section. These events are detailed in Exodus 32. In 2 Chronicles 18:22, God lies to prophets. Why should anyone take his word at face value if he has no problem with lying to us for no reason other than to have an excuse to condemn us to Hell? Who's more evil? God or Satan? How can we determine this? Well, it's a simple matter of looking at the actions of both God and Satan. Who's commited more evil acts? Who's done more harm to humanity? Who's been the most oppressive? Is Satan really as bad as the Christian Smear Campaign makes him out to be? Let's find out... God •God takes away Adam and Eve's eternal life, thus commiting the first murder, and holds their descendants responsible and visiting Adam and Eve's punishment down on their children. In today's moral standards, the sins of the father die with the father. •God destroys all life on Earth in a great flood, except for a drunk (Noah) and his family, for failing to worship him. •God's tenth plague upon the Israelites was the unjustified murder of all firstborn sons in Egypt, which undoubtedly included little children. •Before sending the plagues to Egypt, God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, so he could have an excuse to visit horrible plagues upon them, like boils, killing cattle and murdering all firstborn sons. (Exodus 4:21) •God orders the Levites to kill their "every man and his neighnor" for worshipping another god. This cost 3000 lives. (Exodus 32:27) •God sends a plague to the Israelites, apparently feeling that mass-butchery wasn't enough of a punishment. (Exodus 32:35) •God kills Onan for refusing to impregnate his late brother's (whom God also slew) wife and instead "spilling his seed on the ground." (Genesis 38:8-10) •God kills the entire populations of Soddom and Gammorah (again, including women, children and infants) for practicing certain sexual techniques. •God gives all Philistines hemorrhoids in their pubic areas. (1 Samuel 5:9) •God kills over 50,000 people for looking at an ark. (1 Samuel 6:19) •God kills 70,000 people because King David decided to have a census. (1 Chronicles 21:7-14) •God approves of slavery, and instructs owners to beat their slaves. (Proverbs 29:19) •And, finally, God makes sure that if you are guilty of even the smallest transgression, you shall suffer endlessly for all eternity, following a dramatic homecoming for Jesus, who will be extremely pissed off at everyone for putting him to death, even though it was just the Romans and even though he knew what was going to happen beforehand, and he could have easily avoided it by using his power as God to perform a miracle and prove who he was. (See the entire book of Revelation) Satan •Satan, like Prometheus, gave knowledge to humanity by giving Eve the fruit from the forbidden tree. Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis. Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did. Satan gave humans true capacity for moral judgment, unlike God, who simply expected everyone to mindlessly obey his orders. •There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide. •There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses. •Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will. It doesn't take a mathematician to add up and compare God and Satan's respective body counts. God has, after all, killed billions of people in a great flood. Satan never did anything like that. What was the only thing Satan did "wrong"? He rebelled against God, but wouldn't you? Look at what kind of a God he is! He needlessly murders people in nearly every book and passage of the Old Testament! He created an entire race of people for the sole purpose of catoring to his own ego, and then gets mad when we don't live up to our appointed role in life or question one of his decisions! He is a ruthless, dictatorial, narcissistic, sociopathic mass murderer. If I go to Hell for not worshipping him, so much the better. I'd rather spend eternity with Satan, someone who hasn't treated the human race like disposable garbage, someone who has given knowledge to humanity rather than trying to suppress it. It's time to stop this needless slandering of Satan's name. Satan has done nothing to deserve it. He hasn't killed anyone, publicly exonerated slavery, demanded our worship or threatened us with eternal damnation for not doing his bidding. It is God who is guilty of all these crimes. Satan's done nothing but rebel against a repugnantly unjust authority figure, and he gets eternal damnation and association and blame for all evil on Earth! Meanwhile, Martin Luther King, Jr. gets a holiday named after him, and Satan was far more courageous that King was. After all, Satan stood up to an all powerful narcissist who made it clear that he never would change his mind on any issue. King at least had a democracy to work with. The Christian Smear Campaign toward Satan is completely unwarranted. Maybe, before criticizing Satan, they should look at the God they worship. Is Satan really a bad guy? Certainly not in comparison to God. In fact, I'd much rather have Satan running things. He just can't be worse than God. Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! Yawn! That's all very cute, but fortunately I no more believe in "Satan" than I do "God". Fairy tales and their attendant threats impress only children and simple-minded adults. If that includes you, then oh well. Not my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period!Why did you start a whole new thread if you were replying to someone else's argument? You've clearly missed the point here. Satan is depicted as a vile, dispicable character, and yet he's created by God and does God's will. The idea of Satan is internally inconsistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thegoodbook Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Why did you start a whole new thread if you were replying to someone else's argument? You've clearly missed the point here. Satan is depicted as a vile, dispicable character, and yet he's created by God and does God's will. The idea of Satan is internally inconsistant. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I just wanted to put it where it blongs in the right area. That way i don't miss anything that was said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 I just wanted to put it where it blongs in the right area. That way i don't miss anything that was said. Oh? And who died and made you a moderator? Besides which, this subject does NOT belong in the Debate section, but in the General Theological Issues area. (Where, BTW, it already IS. Since that is where you clipped it from.) Thanks for wasting bandwidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wow, I'm here becuase of Zeus? Cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thegoodbook Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 Oh? And who died and made you a moderator? Besides which, this subject does NOT belong in the Debate section, but in the General Theological Issues area. (Where, BTW, it already IS. Since that is where you clipped it from.) Thanks for wasting bandwidth. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But I'm a christian and I'm about to debate it, I figuer put where is belongs. Don't get so upset over it. GOSH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 But I'm a christian and I'm about to debate it <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'll hold you to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 I'll hold you to that.Out of one debate and into another. That seems to be the way of things around here. It would certainly seem that we can stick a fork in TJR. He's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 The goodbook..haha. The book that endorses murder, rape, slavery, killing babies, genocide, shitty treatment of women, revenge on a grand scale. Yeah...real "good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizard Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 The goodbook..haha. The book that endorses murder, rape, slavery, killing babies, genocide, shitty treatment of women, revenge on a grand scale. Yeah...real "good". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It is if you're a male on a power trip, I suppose.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted September 10, 2005 Share Posted September 10, 2005 It is if you're a male on a power trip, I suppose.. What's that? Small penis syndrome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 ...you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! That would be the same gawd, I presume, who knew that its beloved human creations would sin, had the means to prevent it, but let it come to pass so it could punish them? Sheesh... christians... idiots... is there any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necrosmith Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Of the two, I'll take my chances with Satan, thanks. Assuming either actually ever existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clergicide Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No I'm right here typing on this message board right now, because Three Stooges is over and I need to do something while I finish off this coffee. If God has his hands in events that mundane he surely must be in hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! You make a fatal error at the beginning of all you thoughts: that the Bible is 100% true and the source of absolute truth and knowledge. If it is less than that, then saying things like "the only reason you are here right now.... is because of God, period!” is unfounded and meaningless. Start at the core and prove the Bible is trustworthy, and then you might be able to make such sweeping judgments and maybe sound just a little less presumptuous and arrogant, as you do now. You have a huge, huge task ahead of you to make that boast valid in light of the unending mountains of evidence to the contrary. That's how you should be spending you energies: making sure you've basing everything you say on something reliable. To us, it's like hearing you say, "Micky Mouse loves you and wants you to believe in him." It's fantasy like a Disney creation, not reality. See you later over on this side of the posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! Ah! TGB is back. The only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because the theories of evolution are true, period! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Brian Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 If Satan does exist, he isn't such a bad guy. I particularly enjoy the music his buddies here on Earth make. Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Have you ever seen the DVD of God, The Devil, And Bob? Satan's got some style on that show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Brian Posted September 11, 2005 Share Posted September 11, 2005 Yes I have. it's been a while, but GD&B is friggin hilarious. Kind of like the Mr. Hell show.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Satan added to us? So you mean that god and satan are buddies now? I am totally confused. I am not getting what you are saying. As far as why I am on this message board, I can say that it had something to do with god... as far as a subject matter. I am here because I have HUGE doubts in christianity and the bible. I am FED UP with christians that tell me how to live yet they do the exact opposite of what they preach. SICK AND TIRED of all the religious crap that had ALMOST ruined my life. I am here because there is support here that I never got as a christian, from my "brothers and sisters". If god is the reason why I am here... then he is at fault for keeping me here and off the church pew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksand Posted September 13, 2005 Share Posted September 13, 2005 Yes, Satan gave us the capacity to tell right from wrong. Well, that's unique. Without God though, that wouldnt matter, because we wouldnt be here in the first place! And this is relevant to satan how? God created us, Satan added to us, without God creating us, Satan's works are useless. So is Jesus who is God. So... ? Um, what is this some celestial game of Spy vs Spy? Therefore you might think Satan is less evil, but the only reason you are here right now and have been typing on this message board is because of God, period! Not Satan? Are you sure? I wonder if you could provide a list of criteria that would substantiate this. How can you differentiate that this board is not an addition by Satan rather than by direct or indirect creation of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spamandham Posted September 15, 2005 Share Posted September 15, 2005 Of the two, I'll take my chances with Satan, thanks. Assuming either actually ever existed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Satan is said to be the one non-trinity being who was closest to god, and he rejected god knowing full well what the consequences would be (the thought of a superintelligent satan thinking he could defeat god is beyond stupid, he rejected god outright). That's quite a testimony don't you think? Much more so than a bunch of ancient sun stroked mushroom eating goat herders trying to gain influence for themselves by writing 'scriptures'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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