Just Talked With My Parents

[Hydroman74]

I had my parents come to my work site today (I am the only one here)so that I could talk with them about things that are going on in my life. Even though I'm 36 years old, this was hard to do but I want them to know what I'm going through.

 

We talked for about 3.5 hours and I won't be able to repeat everything that we talked about, but all in all it was a great conversation. They will defend the christian god to the death. It doesn't matter how evil he may have been in the O.T., they defend it.

 

We talked about the Bible and I explained to them the history of it, such as how it was strung together, how it was edited, things taken out of it, added to it, etc. and asked how could they trust it. They said they have faith that the main message is still in tact, the message of Jesus coming to earth and dying for us and resurrecting. I asked how could they believe it knowing the history of the bible. They said it was "faith". Everytime they brought up "faith", I would bring up all other religions that also have "faith" in their beliefs. They would say that the christian "faith" gives hope in eternal life. They believe that since I'm searching for truth that the biblical god will eventually give it to me. I said that he'll HAVE to give it to me because I'm not asking him for it anymore. I also said even if he does somehow show me that he's real that I probably won't serve him simply because I feel like he's evil. I asked them over and over how could god be good when he did what he did and allowed what he allowed in the old testament (such as plundering and slaughtering whole peoples but leaving the virgin daughters alive for themselves), and that if we did those things today to another country we would be considered evil? But when god does it, it's not evil? I also asked if god knows our hearts like the bible says, and if he is omniscient, he would understand why people believe the way they do and can understand why they believe the way they do, but will burn them forever anyways? And he expects us with our puny brains to make a decision whether or not we believe when we've never seen him, nor heard him, nor touched him, and he will burn us forever when we choose wrong? Good grief. This is a good god? Maybe I don't understand the definition of "good".

 

So, basically what everything always came down to was "faith". And when they would give that answer I would say that I have no faith. And I said that people of all beliefs have "faith" that what they believe is true, but that doesn't make it true, so why should christianity be true? "Well, people die for it," they would say. And I would say that people die for all faiths. There's no answer for that.

 

There were some tears shed, but in the end they are proud of me that I am searching. They believe that god will reveal himself to me in a way that I know it is god. I said, "how will I know it's god? And how will I know it's true?" They would say, "you just will."

 

My dad said for me not to be surprised if he still asks me to say the blessing when we come over to eat dinner, and I said that I will say it like I always do.

 

We talked about MANY other things, but there is so much that I'm not going to type it all out.

 

So, no my parents didn't disown me. Matter of fact it seemed to be the opposite and I am very thankful. I love them.

[ColorMixer]

It's great to hear that there doesn't seem to be any hard feelings! Though my parents were not believers, they were relieved that I left my fundie beliefs in the garbage. I'm interested though, did you feel that the talk became more of a debate than anything? Did you enjoy talking about it? I've had similar experiences with a few of my friends now, and I realize now that I don't really want to have a debate when I'm telling them that I no longer believe. If they want to debate later cool, but when I'm in the midst of pouring out my thoughts and decision, I'd rather get into a discussion.

 

Again, glad your parents didn't disown you, and I'm glad you were able to tell them!

[HRDWarrior]

Glad it went well for you. It is sometimes hard, and as time goes on and you don't "go back" you may find them becoming a bit more pressuring, but at least you now are all on the same page, which is a great feeling.

[Hydroman74]

There was a lot of discussion and some debating. For example, I asked them if they've read all 4 accounts of the resurrection story side-by-side to see how different they are. My dad replied back that it is like witnessing a car wreck. Many witnesses have different perspectives of the wreck and report their perspective to the police. I asked him if those witnesses were inspired by a god when they reported to the police. The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of the god of the universe so why would he inspire them to write conflicting stories? They said that he did inspire the authors to write the perspectives of what was spoken to them by the witnesses. I don't get it.

 

Again, pretty much everything we discussed came back down to faith, which I always pointed out. Then I began speaking about a book that Ken Daniels wrote describing his deconversion from a christian missionary to an atheist. They then asked, "How do you know his story is true? How do you know he isn't lying about it?" I said, "Well, the man is still alive and I could ask him if I want and he could reply back to me." But I didn't really give a good response to that in my opinion. Now that I look back at it, I should have said that I don't claim that what he wrote was inspired by the god of the universe. And would it really matter if he wrote that book or not? And if he did lie, so what? What does it matter? But the bible on the other hand makes extraordinary claims and it should require extraordinary evidence. Or something along those lines... It wouldn't have mattered though because they are set on what they believe to be the truth.

 

I also kept bringing up hell and how it isn't just in my opinion. How can this omnipotent god punish us insignificant human beings when we've never seen him, heard him, touched him, etc.? How are we supposed to believe it? There are so many beliefs to choose from, even within christianity itself. But, not only will this god punish us, but do it forever and ever, and ever, and ever, etc. Isn't that a little extreme?

[Phanta]

Again, pretty much everything we discussed came back down to faith, which I always pointed out. Then I began speaking about a book that Ken Daniels wrote describing his deconversion from a christian missionary to an atheist. They then asked, "How do you know his story is true? How do you know he isn't lying about it?" I said, "Well, the man is still alive and I could ask him if I want and he could reply back to me." But I didn't really give a good response to that in my opinion. Now that I look back at it, I should have said that I don't claim that what he wrote was inspired by the god of the universe. And would it really matter if he wrote that book or not? And if he did lie, so what? What does it matter? But the bible on the other hand makes extraordinary claims and it should require extraordinary evidence. Or something along those lines... It wouldn't have mattered though because they are set on what they believe to be the truth.

 

Daniels wrote his own account very close to the time of the events. It's an eye-witness account by the person who had the experiences. Because he is a missionary who left his faith, his story carries a lot of weight with non-believers and questioners, so Christians would have lots of reason to challenge and expose his claims if they were lies. He and those he has worked with as a missionary are still alive. Many facts are still verifiable, especially in an age where contacting people and documenting the history and movement of a person through official paperwork is simple. Has his story been challenged and convincingly debunked through research?

 

Phanta

[★ Citsonga ★]

I asked them if they've read all 4 accounts of the resurrection story side-by-side to see how different they are. My dad replied back that it is like witnessing a car wreck. Many witnesses have different perspectives of the wreck and report their perspective to the police. I asked him if those witnesses were inspired by a god when they reported to the police. The bible is supposed to be the inspired word of the god of the universe so why would he inspire them to write conflicting stories? They said that he did inspire the authors to write the perspectives of what was spoken to them by the witnesses. I don't get it.

 

Yeah, the good ol' "like witnessing a car wreck" argument. That gets thrown out there a lot, but there are a few serious flaws with it.

 

First, obviously, is what you pointed out, which is the fact that christians claim that the bible is inspired by gawd. If the authors really were under such divine inspiration, they would not have such drastically inconsistent stories.

 

Second, the "car wreck" argument uses "witnesses," but the gospel accounts were not even written by witnesses of the events they claim happened.

 

Third, if said witnesses of an accident can be faulty on the details when reporting them just minutes after the event, then how can we trust accounts written several decades after the claimed events by people who weren't there?

 

Fourth, when there are discrepancies between the accident's eye-witnesses, it's an indication that at least one person is likely mistaken about how it happened. The job of the authorities is to sort out the discrepancies and try to figure out what really happened.

 

Fifth, I would imagine that the typical differences in eye-witness accounts of car wrecks are probably not quite as drastically discrepant as the gospel accounts' resurrection stories unless at least one person is lying about what happened.

 

Sixth, in addition to the witnesses' accounts that can be sifted through, the authorities have the actual wreckage to investigate! There is evidence beyond the eye-witness testimony. With stories like the resurrection accounts in the gospels, there is no evidence to examine!

 

I began speaking about a book that Ken Daniels wrote describing his deconversion from a christian missionary to an atheist. They then asked, "How do you know his story is true? How do you know he isn't lying about it?"

 

If he hadn't deconverted and he wrote a positive book about his missionary experience, you parents probably wouldn't be so quick to question his credibility, would they?

[Hydroman74]

Yeah, the good ol' "like witnessing a car wreck" argument. That gets thrown out there a lot, but there are a few serious flaws with it.

 

First, obviously, is what you pointed out, which is the fact that christians claim that the bible is inspired by gawd. If the authors really were under such divine inspiration, they would not have such drastically inconsistent stories.

 

Second, the "car wreck" argument uses "witnesses," but the gospel accounts were not even written by witnesses of the events they claim happened.

 

Third, if said witnesses of an accident can be faulty on the details when reporting them just minutes after the event, then how can we trust accounts written several decades after the claimed events by people who weren't there?

 

Fourth, when there are discrepancies between the accident's eye-witnesses, it's an indication that at least one person is likely mistaken about how it happened. The job of the authorities is to sort out the discrepancies and try to figure out what really happened.

 

Fifth, I would imagine that the typical differences in eye-witness accounts of car wrecks are probably not quite as drastically discrepant as the gospel accounts' resurrection stories unless at least one person is lying about what happened.

 

Sixth, in addition to the witnesses' accounts that can be sifted through, the authorities have the actual wreckage to investigate! There is evidence beyond the eye-witness testimony. With stories like the resurrection accounts in the gospels, there is no evidence to examine!

Good stuff, thanks!

 

If he hadn't deconverted and he wrote a positive book about his missionary experience, you parents probably wouldn't be so quick to question his credibility, would they?

I think they were wanting me to say that I have faith that the story was true, but I didn't go there.

[Llwellyn]

in the end they are proud of me that I am searching. They believe that god will reveal himself to me in a way that I know it is god. I said, "how will I know it's god? And how will I know it's true?" They would say, "you just will." My dad said for me not to be surprised if he still asks me to say the blessing when we come over to eat dinner, and I said that I will say it like I always do. So, no my parents didn't disown me. Matter of fact it seemed to be the opposite and I am very thankful. I love them.

 

Of course, it is good to have a relationship with one's parents... But it is more than a little embarrassing to read a grown man write what you have just written. I knew I had become an adult when I no longer cared what my parents thought of me, and when their validation meant nothing to me. My parents and I are close, but not because I ask them questions and they answer them, or because I ask them if I'm "OK" and they tell me "you're OK." You should not be asking your parents the questions "how will I know it's god? And how will I know it's true?" -- you should be answering them for yourself and giving your answer to your parents if they ask you.

 

I am not trying to insult you, because I know that parental-dependency is created by this infantilizing religion of Christianity. Christianity teaches us that we should believe things on the authority of someone else, and most of the time this authority is our parents. On the authority of our parents and the Bible our parents gave us, we must believe that the Trinity is God. It wasn't by adolescent exploration and growth that we learned that the Trinity is god. Believing the religion keeps us dependent on the external authority of our "seniors" even as we age and become adults. "Religion does not teach self-reliance, independence, manliness, courage, self-defence." "They teach the cringing virtues of serfs. They abhor the courage of manly men. They hate the man who thinks." Robert Ingersoll.

 

When I deconverted at 25, I certainly remember asking my parents all kinds of questions as well, and seeking their validation. Today, Yahweh could come out of the clouds with all of the power and characteristics described in the Bible, and I would still be unwilling to call him "good" or "God" -- which to me are the same thing. He could curse me for all eternity and I still will not agree to the virtue of cursing. I'm not waiting for any god to come down. Neither am I waiting for my parents to understand or give me permission. We have a great relationship, but it is not the same as it was when I was a child.

[★ Citsonga ★]

in the end they are proud of me that I am searching. They believe that god will reveal himself to me in a way that I know it is god. I said, "how will I know it's god? And how will I know it's true?" They would say, "you just will." My dad said for me not to be surprised if he still asks me to say the blessing when we come over to eat dinner, and I said that I will say it like I always do. So, no my parents didn't disown me. Matter of fact it seemed to be the opposite and I am very thankful. I love them.

 

Of course, it is good to have a relationship with one's parents... But it is more than a little embarrassing to read a grown man write what you have just written. I knew I had become an adult when I no longer cared what my parents thought of me, and when their validation meant nothing to me. My parents and I are close, but not because I ask them questions and they answer them, or because I ask them if I'm "OK" and they tell me "you're OK." You should not be asking your parents the questions "how will I know it's god? And how will I know it's true?" -- you should be answering them for yourself and giving your answer to your parents if they ask you.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I took his questions to be intended to get his parents to think more, not really an indication of wanting pat answers from them.

[Hydroman74]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I took his questions to be intended to get his parents to think more, not really an indication of wanting pat answers from them.

Yes, I do want them to think more, but I also want them to make me think more. It shouldn't only go one way.

 

And yes Llwellyn, I understand what you're saying and I'm not offended. I wouldn't care if you were trying to offend me. My parents and I went through the death of my brother/their son. I know that they struggle with losing him so I try to be careful about sharing how I feel because I don't want to bring them more grief. That's just how I feel.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I took his questions to be intended to get his parents to think more, not really an indication of wanting pat answers from them.

Yes, I do want them to think more, but I also want them to make me think more. It shouldn't only go one way.

 

I agree. It seems that most christians just offer pat answers, though, rather than something to really ponder. Not all, of course, but it seems to be the norm, which isn't really surprising since supposedly "gawd'll fix it."

 

My parents and I went through the death of my brother/their son. I know that they struggle with losing him so I try to be careful about sharing how I feel because I don't want to bring them more grief. That's just how I feel.

 

I agree again. It's noble to consider your parents' feelings on the matter.

[Carmen]

I'm glad you're parents responded with respect and love. I just had to go through telling my parents about my disbelief and I know how hard it can be!

 

I asked them over and over how could god be good when he did what he did and allowed what he allowed in the old testament (such as plundering and slaughtering whole peoples but leaving the virgin daughters alive for themselves), and that if we did those things today to another country we would be considered evil? But when god does it, it's not evil?

 

Yes, that's a big question that I've asked many believers. They all rationalize that it was part of the culture back then, and that I'm "taking the verses out of context" and "misinterpreting" them. It seems to me that THEY are the ones trying to take the verses out of context and trying to twist them around. Another common argument I hear is that in the OT, God's wrath and his anger at sin had to be poured out because Jesus hadn't come to atone us yet. This sounds like complete BS to me, but Christians find it to be a satisfying answer! I don't know how they cannot see that the God of the OT is a vengeful, immoral maniac!

[Hydroman74]

Exactly Carmen. The bible also says that god never changes. That means he hasn't changed since the O.T.

 

Also, if Jesus and the christian god are one in the same, they sure seem to be completely different for the most part. Can you imagine Jesus ordering the israelites to kill children? He told the disciples that we needed to be like children to enter heaven. It's so contradictory.

[lunaticheathen]

It's good to know your parents love you even now. So many others take their insane religion as an excuse to disown their own family for thinking differently. My mother kicked me out of the house when I was 16 for looking into pagan beliefs for myself. She got over it, which is more than many others do, but it took years. I still don't talk to her very openly about my beliefs/practices. It's not really her business, anyway, and she still has a baptist missionary's daughter for a friend, who calls anything I do "black arts", even when I was trying out the Baha'i religion. Because, you know, people who think all religions are mostly right eat children and worship Satan. Yeah.

I'd be thankful too to have parents willing to accept me, no matter what I thought. Of course one shouldn't be dependent upon acceptance from one's parents just to function, but damn it, it's comforting. I manage a little bit just by avoiding the subject, but, so it goes. I have other friends with whom I can speak my mind, and share my experiences that make Baby Jeebus cry.