Jesus, A Jew, Studied In The Jewish Temple, Where Is His Mention Of The Torah?

[Brakeman]

Did jesus, as a jew, not study the Talmud and the jewish version of the OT called the Tanach? If so, why do christians not study and use these versions? Is it because they contradict the messianic prophesies?

[Dagan]

I thought the Torah was just Genesis-Deuteronomy and the Tanach was the OT history books and some of the prophets.

[Brakeman]

I thought the Torah was just Genesis-Deuteronomy and the Tanach was the OT history books and some of the prophets.

Thanks, I had a major brain fart. Sorry..

[mwc]

The Torah is the law (teachings where the law is found but law is a reasonable shorthand I think). "Jesus," to xians, is essentially a walking/talking Torah.

 

mwc

[Dagan]

Were you thinking of the Talmud? Because that's sure fodder for an interesting discussion.

 

The whole Jesus talking in the temple story, I think, is intended to show he was, at age 12, higher than the rabbis in his understanding of the law. Which is interesting when you realize that everything was passed on through oral tradition at that point, through discussion among rabbis in the temple.

 

Jesus was integrating himself into that process (in the story anyway).

 

The Talmud was in development during Jesus' time. And one of the centres where its development took place was in Caesarea – in Jesus' back yard, the city where he spent most of his ministry.

[mwc]

Were you thinking of the Talmud? Because that's sure fodder for an interesting discussion.

 

The whole Jesus talking in the temple story, I think, is intended to show he was, at age 12, higher than the rabbis in his understanding of the law. Which is interesting when you realize that everything was passed on through oral tradition at that point, through discussion among rabbis in the temple.

 

Jesus was integrating himself into that process (in the story anyway).

 

The Talmud was in development during Jesus' time. And one of the centres where its development took place was in Caesarea – in Jesus' back yard, the city where he spent most of his ministry.

Of this is addressed to me then no. I was thinking Torah. "Jesus" is the walking/talking law of xianity. He was basically the laws the Jews screwed up, sent down from on-high, in human form. So the Jews said what the law was and he said what it *really* was. And the law was written all during the second temple period. This is very clearly known. Copies were kept at many locations and we're told that during the war of at least one group that were punished for removing the law from the city it was kept in (they wanted to protect it but the guy in charge was a dick).

 

All important people were in the temple (or somewhere) besting the experts of the days. Josephus tells us he did his in his memoirs.

 

mwc

[Dagan]

Were you thinking of the Talmud? Because that's sure fodder for an interesting discussion.

 

The whole Jesus talking in the temple story, I think, is intended to show he was, at age 12, higher than the rabbis in his understanding of the law. Which is interesting when you realize that everything was passed on through oral tradition at that point, through discussion among rabbis in the temple.

 

Jesus was integrating himself into that process (in the story anyway).

 

The Talmud was in development during Jesus' time. And one of the centres where its development took place was in Caesarea – in Jesus' back yard, the city where he spent most of his ministry.

Of this is addressed to me then no. I was thinking Torah. "Jesus" is the walking/talking law of xianity. He was basically the laws the Jews screwed up, sent down from on-high, in human form. So the Jews said what the law was and he said what it *really* was. And the law was written all during the second temple period. This is very clearly known. Copies were kept at many locations and we're told that during the war of at least one group that were punished for removing the law from the city it was kept in (they wanted to protect it but the guy in charge was a dick).

 

All important people were in the temple (or somewhere) besting the experts of the days. Josephus tells us he did his in his memoirs.

 

mwc

 

I was replying to Brakeman, but thanks for your comment.

 

I found it very interesting to re-read through the bible once I realized how late the stories had actually been written down. They make a lot more sense in that light.

 

It's also interesting how Jesus evolves from the god-man of Mark to the walking, talking law of Matthew to the living word of God in John.

[Brakeman]

Sorry folks, I meant Talmud not Torah. I'm not Jewish so I get it's terms mixed up in my head sometimes.

 

As you know Jesus says often "it is written" but does he ever say "It is orally repeated and memorized"? How could he have not commented on their voluminous commentary, the Talmudic teachings? Did he let it stand in it's entirety. Why is the Torah not word for word the same as the Old Testament? Wouldn't Jesus have expected it to be?

 

If God inspired the New testament writers why didn't he include a new Talmud for the New Testament?

 

If the old Talmud wasn't inspired by god, why didn't Jesus teach against it? Even if it were forthcoming he could have foretold of it.

[mwc]

Sorry folks, I meant Talmud not Torah. I'm not Jewish so I get it's terms mixed up in my head sometimes.

 

As you know Jesus says often "it is written" but does he ever say "It is orally repeated and memorized"? How could he have not commented on their voluminous commentary, the Talmudic teachings? Did he let it stand in it's entirety. Why is the Torah not word for word the same as the Old Testament? Wouldn't Jesus have expected it to be?

 

If God inspired the New testament writers why didn't he include a new Talmud for the New Testament?

 

If the old Talmud wasn't inspired by god, why didn't Jesus teach against it? Even if it were forthcoming he could have foretold of it.

You're confusing me to no end.

 

The tanach is the OT. It's basically divided up into the teachings/law (torah), the prophets and the writings.

 

The talmud is something else entirely. There is a Babylonian Talmud and a Jerusalem (Palestinian) Talmud but for simplicity lets just assume there is just a single "talmud" (though this is inaccurate). The talmud deals with more than just the torah or the tanach. It's not simply another "version" of these things. So the "talmud" isn't "inspired" by a "god" and I don't believe anyone thinks this. It's rabbinic argument on many issues that *may* be found within the tanach (directly or indirectly). In this sense "jesus" could be seen as performing a sort of rabbinic argument.

 

Not all Jewish sects would recognize the oral tradition as meaningful anyhow. The Sadducees, for example, appeared to not accept anything outside of the torah when coming to their decisions. And they were the ones in charge until the fall of the temple. This is why "jesus" appears to be a Pharisee. He largely agrees with their philosophy and his argumentation is reasonably rabbinic in nature (and the rabbinic school are the ones responsible for the talmud and Judaism after the fall of the temple). The teachings of the "talmud" grow over hundreds of years so, assuming there was any such thing as a "talmud" to argue against at the time of "jesus" (and there likely wasn't though it deals with this period and before) it would have been a much smaller amount of information.

 

mwc

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I thought the Torah was just Genesis-Deuteronomy and the Tanach was the OT history books and some of the prophets.

Well sort of, its a bastardized translation of it (that is half-assed). But yeah, otherwise you are right.

 

Still, Jesus didn't mention it, he just often misquoted the Tanakh.

[Phanta]

I thought the Torah was just Genesis-Deuteronomy and the Tanach was the OT history books and some of the prophets.

Well sort of, its a bastardized translation of it (that is half-assed). But yeah, otherwise you are right.

 

Still, Jesus didn't mention it, he just often misquoted the Tanakh.

 

Now I'm confused. You're saying the *Torah* is a bastardized translation of Genesis-Deuteronomy? Or are you saying the *Tanach* was a bastardized translation of the OT history books and some of the prophets?

My understanding is that there was a Torah and a Tanakh long before there was an "Old Testament".

 

Phanta