Why you are all wasting your time...

[Guest reality]

Hello.

 

You are wasting your time on this forum.

 

I say this for two reasons. The first one is people. The second one is the Universe. I will get the first out of the way very quickly.

 

PEOPLE:

 

You're proud.

 

You have an inflated opinion of yourself. Intellectually arrogant. Think you know something. (By the way, you don't - see the next section).

 

You think you can convince other people to see things your way through arguing with them on here. You ask for proof or for evidence... or for disproof or counterevidence. Or you think you can present it to others. You think that other people will really trust some loser on a chat board over their own experience and their own mind.

 

You call people names.

 

All this sophistry and pontification and you end up resorting to calling people names. Or you're insulting their intelliegence, or critiqing spelling and grammar, or picking on trifles and side-issues while side-stepping the real questions. Maybe you think it's funny... and maybe I would even agree sometimes, but it's also invariably counterproductive and often just downright stupid. Enough is enough - please don't be an idiot for the sake of everyone else on here.

 

You want to convince someone of Christianity or not-Christianity? There are lots of ways, but acting rude, proud, and haughty is not the best of them.

 

 

THE UNIVERSE:

 

I see all these people on here asking for proof or for disproof, evidence or counterevidence about the nature (or even existence) of God.

 

But that's impossible.

 

God's nature or existence cannot be affirmatively proved or disproved by the use of reason, by human minds... or really by anything in this universe. Sorry, but that's how it is. This is an ancient philisophical principle which I had thought to be very widely known and accepted until I saw the forums at this site.

 

Not that you could blame anyone for wanting proof. Of course we WANT proof. Obviously, that's the way to be sure you can rely on anything in this world. That's the problem, though: God is most definitely NOT in this world.

 

We can no more prove or disprove anything about God than a resident of Sim City could prove or disprove anything about Bill Gates.

 

You see, it's a completely different scale altogother that we're talking about. "One-upage" is my favorite term for this. The Christian God is someone who is beyond space and time, who operates with omniscience, omnipotence, and eternity... well above and beyond the scope of anything in our space-time continuum. We can't even begin to comprehend things like this, let alone be able to prove anything about relations between this outside realm and our own little world.

 

Asking a human to prove or disprove the existence of God is like asking a 2D pac-man to fly the next 747 from Chicago to San Fransisco. He can't even comprehend the existence of 3 dimensions, let alone take any coherent course of action. Just the same way, we know little to nothing about what's beyond our universe.

 

Hey, when we're really honest, we know little to nothing about ANYTHING.

 

Prove to me there's not a little green man standing behind you right now.

 

You can't do it.

 

Maybe he's too fast. Maybe he's an alien and is wearing a cloaking device. Whatever you want. The fact is, you really can't KNOW with any certainty that he's not behind you right now, ready to bite your ankles. Comforting, isn't it?

 

You can't know much about anything. You just have faith that your ankles are safe. Faith is at the bottom of it all - not knowledge.

 

You have faith that your senses give you some indication of some type of reality. And so you trust them, and from that trust placed in sensory input, derive facts about this perceived world. These facts mix together to give you feelingsm, reactions, and "actions" (which are really just all REACTIONS anyway). You see, faith is what this world is really made of.

 

Feelings are based on facts, which are based on faith. Feelings, facts, faith. Faith is at the bottom. Faith is what it's all about.

 

 

 

The trick then, is what you will place your faith in.

 

Sure, ideally - we would place our faith in nothing. We can't reasonably trust much of anything because we can't KNOW much of anything. The only rational thing to do, then, is to suspend judgment on all of it. To say neither "yes", nor "no"... but only "I don't know". That's all that a rational person would be able to do.

 

But that is the one thing that we absolutely cannot do. We have no choice.

 

We HAVE to trust something as long as we assume that we're alive. We have to wake up, to exist, to react to sensory input. The only option besides choosing something to trust is to die.

 

We can no more live without living BY something or FOR something than we can move without going anywhere.

 

So you have to choose. So what will it be? What will you trust?

 

Yourself? Your own mind? Some girl? A boyfriend? Husband? Wife? Sex? Money? Power? Fame? Your own ease and peace? Religion? Art or music? What will it be?

 

If you still don't understand the impact of what I'm saying and try to choose "nothing", then you are still by default choosing "yourself".

 

And that's sad. You already know you can't trust yourself... unless you really think your own mind is perfect. Is your judgment flawless? Have you considered everything in the entire universe and then made an accurate assessment of the situation?

 

You see, I'm not trying to say that I know anything. I'm just pointing out some reasons why I don't know anything.

 

And you don't know anything either.

 

You only believe, with "prior probability" weights in your own mind that come from induction and your past experience... which are in turn based on nothing but blind faith. You THINK that you're so many years old - for really no good reason when you get down to it. Your memory could be wrong. You could be living in a computer simulation ala The Matrix. Bascially, you don't know anything.

 

You don't know anything - you just have blind faith... in something - probably just yourself in some way, shape, or form. And that's sad because for the thinking minds among you - you of all people should know that you are not always right. And it's tragic for anyone acquainted with Christianity at all because you of all people should care about what happens if you are wrong.

 

Not that I know much of anything either - like I said above. But for what it's worth, I think it obvious that placing faith in anything even POSSIBLY true, outside and above and beyond yourself, it VASTLY preferable to placing your faith in something that you already know to be (quite literally) a dead end. This is to say yeah, I'm a Christian.

 

(So here's the shameless plug for Jesus)

 

You'd be surprised - it's not so hard to believe. I've studied religions of the world for years. Simple, relationship-based Christianity is still easily the most believable I've found. You know that any true relations between God and this world would have to come from the top-down - from God and not man. Christianity, in my experience, shows more signs of that than any other religion I've seen - despite the man-made monstrocities that have arisen out of it.

 

How do I judge that? Experience. Sensory input. Prior probablities. Ultimately blind faith. Just like everything and everyone else in the entire world. It's all a human being can do. More important than the how, though - is the WHAT. (Especially true if we start talking about predestination.) You see, I have faith IN God. The Only Wise God. As opposed to myself, or pleasure, or money, or power, etc. It offers hope for something beyond this world and makes more sense on multiple levels than anything else I've ever encountered.

 

(/shamelessplug)

 

...But of course I can't PROVE any of that in a meaningful way to you. Neither could anyone outright disprove the existence of God, or The Force, or perhaps Odin or Thor. You see, arguing about these things will not do a whole lot of good.

 

If you are unwilling to see, nobody can make you see. You can't understand until you're already there. And once you're there, you can't understand what it's like on the other side. It's a commitment and a choice you make... and THEN you understand later on. God's ways are higher than man's.

 

You will, in the course of your life, end up giving your entire self to something - be it yourself or God or whatever else in the world. You have no choice but to choose something, but you also can choose what that something is. No random person on a chat board can make that choice for you.

 

I wish people would understand that.

[Ouroboros]

You are wasting your time on this forum.

(snip)

Huh? Why? I'm on this site to talk and discuss with my friend, but once in a while people like you drop in and think they know everything.

 

(mubojumbo)

I'll deal with that later.

 

(snip)

If you are unwilling to see, nobody can make you see.  You can't understand until you're already there.  And once you're there, you can't understand what it's like on the other side.  It's a commitment and a choice you make... and THEN you understand later on.  God's ways are higher than man's.

(snip)

How beautifully presumptions of you. 30 years as a Christian, and 2 years as an agnostic, and I don't know what it is how to be a Christian? You need a serious reality check.

[Lunar Shadow]

Anyone want to take out odds on if reality comes back?

 

4 to 1 against

[scotter]

Quote from Reality

I've studied religions of the world for years.

 

And you haven't learnt from the religions' common message: love & respect.

 

 

You know that any true relations between God and this world would have to come from the top-down - from God and not man. Christianity, in my experience, shows more signs of that than any other religion

 

This is one point Christian apologetics boast about: Christianity is from God to man top-down religion, other religions are about from man to God.

 

Christianity is top-down because it devalues man as born stained with (original) sin, man is hopelessly separated from God, lost in a state of sin in which he has been held captive since this fall, that's why God/Jesus reaches out to save human.

 

Other theistic religions teach that man is a free agent blessed with God-Consciousness and that he has the ability to reach out to God.

 

Always remember, using this apologetic point is a double-edged sword.

[white_raven23]

News Flash Reality,

 

The people who wind up here, in this forum, we'd already figured out the cultural majority had lied to us. We had already figured out where we truly stood. We settled on athiesm, deism, paganism, agnosticism.....what have you. Lot's of different flavors to choose from.

 

Personally I went for deism, I can explain it in four words (what religion can do that?). Ready?

 

God? Yes. Religion? NO!

 

Did you get that? Was it hard? If you need a further explanation, please look it up.

 

My point is this...the folks who come here have already figured out where they feel comfortable placing their beliefs. Or, if they aren't comfortable yet....they soon are.

 

I came to this forum wanting to be in a like-minded group. How can people who believe in god, or not believe at all, or choose to worship trees be of a like-mind, you may ask?

 

You won't be able to understand that. The faith you believe in teaches the rule of EXCLUSION. People are either christian, or they aren't. Us or them. Black or white. To you guys.

 

Sorry.

 

The world has to many variations and colors fo me to be happy with such a limited viewpoint.

 

I want to be around people who will accept me as I am. Not decide for me what needs fixing according to a book of unknown authorship with contradictory "instructions". And "guide" me along the path THEY have chosen to represent what is righteous.

 

I decide what gets fixed now.

 

And I'm happier than I've ever been. I have true inner peace.

 

Religion cannot give me peace. It gives anxiety, and then it offers to relieve the anxiety that IT has caused. An emotionally abusive cycle I'm happy to do without.

 

 

May you learn to be free.

[Mike D]

You think that other people will really trust some loser on a chat board over their own experience and their own mind.

And yet you decided to go ahead and post anyway

[Caretaker]

Small words.....

 

 

Attacking that which you don't understand.

 

 

 

If you got the memo, I am not out to convince people. Perhaps I should turn the tables back on you, since you seem to be such an expert on Atheist psychology.

 

YOU have an inflated opinion of yourself.

 

You DARE call us intellectually arrogant? Just because we don't buy into what most people only believe to be true.

 

Sure, we have a very high standard of intellectual honesty. We aren't going to stand around and believe in anything simply because the majority of people believe. So why attack us for it? Are you insanely pissed off that we have the audacity to think for ourselves? That Christianity failed to make it passed our bullshit detector?

 

No, I will NEVER lower my standards of intellectual honesty. NEVER!

 

Your insulting us is not going to get you anything around here. So you got two choices:

 

Stay here and learn about us.

 

or

 

Get lost and return to your security blanket.

[DoubleDee]

You are wasting your time on this forum.

 

No, you are. FOAD

 

like you don't last long after a good

[necrosmith]

LOL

 

Reality, you are the one making the outrageous claim (God exists) - prove it.

One does not prove a negative, it's a logical fallacy.

 

TO put it another way, I worship the Invisible Purple Unicorn.

Prove he doesn't exit, go ahead! Prove it! Guess what, you can't!

[Ms. K]

Oh yay, here we go again.

 

Yet another fundy whackjob spouting "Blah blah blah, you're intellectually arrogant, blah blah blah, Biblegod is real, blah blah blah, if you take a look around blah blah blah, you just don't want to believe and I'm right, you're wrong."

 

Whatever. I don't think I care enough to bother to argue the standard, "the site is called EX-Christian, yadda yadda yadda, lots of us USED to be believers, yadda yadda yadda, FOAD you stupid fundy wanker."

 

I have MUCH better things to do. Like roast marshmallows over the fire that this whackjob will make while being immolated by the usual flamethrowers.

 

*starts hunting up the marshmallow sticks, graham crackers, and chocolate*

 

So, who's up for s'mores?

[Brother Jeff]

You are wasting your time on this forum.

It's my time to waste, thank you. Why do you care if we waste our time here? But yes, at the moment, I am wasting my time here since I am spending time that could be much more productively spent in other ways responding to a typically arrogant Christian asshole. I have now wasted approximately three minutes on you, and you weren't actually worth even one.

 

You wasted YOUR time posting your arrogant message informing us that we were wasting OUR time. Fuck off, asshole.

[TruthWarrior]

I see all these people on here asking for proof or for disproof, evidence or counterevidence about the nature (or even existence) of God.

 

But that's impossible.

 

God's nature or existence cannot be affirmatively proved or disproved by the use of reason, by human minds... or really by anything in this universe.  Sorry, but that's how it is.  This is an ancient philisophical principle which I had thought to be very widely known and accepted until I saw the forums at this site.

 

Not that you could blame anyone for wanting proof.  Of course we WANT proof.  Obviously, that's the way to be sure you can rely on anything in this world.  That's the problem, though: God is most definitely NOT in this world.

 

We can no more prove or disprove anything about God than a resident of Sim City could prove or disprove anything about Bill Gates.

 

You see, it's a completely different scale altogother that we're talking about.  "One-upage" is my favorite term for this.  The Christian God is someone who is beyond space and time, who operates with omniscience, omnipotence, and eternity... well above and beyond the scope of anything in our space-time continuum.  We can't even begin to comprehend things like this, let alone be able to prove anything about relations between this outside realm and our own little world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So you believe a book of old documents, written by people who claim to comprehend god, when you know yourself that know one can comprehend nor describe it, nor prove it.

 

Your bible's writers go into great details of god's likes and dislikes, his favorite foods, his favorite people, his favorite days, the days he sleeps and wakes. They detail all the people he gets angry and the reasons why. They'll list the women he hates and the men he loves. They write all the many different things one must do to appease god. They'll attribute anything to god, mix in some imagination, metaphors and figures and serve it up to you in book form, with easy to read english, along with footnotes and if you're lucky, pretty pop up pictures.

 

And you believe that this is the absolute truth and literal biography of what this unknowable, unprovable, uncomprehensible god is? Why?

[♦ nivek ♦]

Wow, I am simply just over taken by the logic of our latest discusser.

 

Excuse me whilst I leave an argument in the Easy Answer Jar for him to find..

 

kL

[nightflight]

Let me put it simply. Your religion seriously fucked my head. It made me a basket case.

[crazy-tiger]

Hello.

 

<random meaningless drivel>

 

I wish people would understand that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Checkmate]

Hello.

You are wasting your time on this forum.

Right back at ya, Sweetums!

 

Hey! Who hung up the fucking "Idiots For Hire - Inquire Within" sign? Someone needs to take that shit down, it's attracting retards like this "reality" by the dozens.

[Guest Dragonblade]

I was going to post an intelligent answer to "reality's" statements, but honestly I became so bored just trying to get through the thing he lost my attention. Could be that it's just hard to understand anyone speaking when they have a mouthful of shit.

[Guest reality]

Yes, it's true. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear - I am DEFINITELY wasting my time right along with all of you. But at least we're being honest about it now, don't you think?

 

As far as time issues are concerned, I think it's pretty clear that nobody really took time to actually READ the post and think about it. That bit about name-calling and side-stepping the real issues now stands well-confirmed within just a few hours, but I wish people would think about the big issues.

 

(TruthWarrior - THANK YOU, you are extremely cool - I think you're the only one who read and listened and understood what I was saying before spouting off. To answer your question, IMHO, I don't really think there is much of a "why" to it. I personally believe because I examine myself and find that I still view this as more believable than any other alternatives. If you don't, that's cool. I personally hope your fate will change because I believe that where you would end up is not a good place, but whatever will be will be, y'know?)

 

One more thing, even if you DIDN'T take time to listen to what I said, I feel I still owe an apology. My tone may have come off a little arrogent itself - especially if you just skimmed over the good stuff while trying to decide whose side I was on. Arrogance is a trap that all of us too often fall into. I do NOT want to come off that way, so I'll repeat this just in case you missed it:

 

I don't know anything. In fact, by sheer probability, I have to assume that I currently hold wrong beliefs about at least important matter in this universe.

 

The trick is, you're in exactly the same situation.

 

No matter who you are, you have wrong beliefs. All of us have to assume that we hold wrong beliefs - which includes me as well as you. Don't be insulted, and don't kid yourself. It's healthy to maintain humilty... and not healthy to suppose that anybody can ever really sway people very much through sheer force of argument.

 

And when did I ever say anything about any church? Or the Bible?

[Fweethawt]

Excerpt from Christian Science, by Mark Twain

 

CHAPTER V

 

Let us consider that we are all partially insane. It will explain us to each other; it will unriddle many riddles; it will make clear and simple many things which are involved in haunting and harassing difficulties and obscurities now.

 

Those of us who are not in the asylum, and not demonstrably due there, are nevertheless, no doubt, insane in one or two particulars. I think we must admit this; but I think that we are otherwise healthy-minded. I think that when we all see one thing alike, it is evidence that, as regards that one thing, our minds are perfectly sound. Now there are really several things which we do all see alike; things which we all accept, and about which we do not dispute. For instance, we who are outside of the asylum all agree that water seeks its level; that the sun gives light and heat; that fire consumes; that fog is damp; that six times six are thirty-six, that two from ten leaves eight; that eight and seven are fifteen. These are, perhaps, the only things we are agreed about; but, although they are so few, they are of inestimable value, because they make an infallible standard of sanity. Whosoever accepts them him we know to be substantially sane; sufficiently sane; in the working essentials, sane. Whoever disputes a single one of them him we know to be wholly insane, and qualified for the asylum.

 

Very well, the man who disputes none of them we concede to be entitled to go at large. But that is concession enough. We cannot go any further than that; for we know that in all matters of mere opinion that same man is insane--just as insane as we are; just as insane as Shakespeare was. We know exactly where to put our finger upon his insanity: it is where his opinion differs from ours.

[Ms. K]

Yes, it's true.  I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear - I am DEFINITELY wasting my time right along with all of you.  But at least we're being honest about it now, don't you think?

 

Whatever.

 

As far as time issues are concerned, I think it's pretty clear that nobody really took time to actually READ the post and think about it.  That bit about name-calling and side-stepping the real issues now stands well-confirmed within just a few hours, but I wish people would think about the big issues.

 

We've heard it all before. You're not saying anything new. Don't you all come up with better arguments in your churches, rather than spout the same tired dreck?

 

(TruthWarrior - THANK YOU, you are extremely cool - I think you're the only one who read and listened and understood what I was saying before spouting off.  To answer your question, IMHO, I don't really think there is much of a "why" to it.  I personally believe because I examine myself and find that I still view this as more believable than any other alternatives.  If you don't, that's cool.  I personally hope your fate will change because I believe that where you would end up is not a good place, but whatever will be will be, y'know?)

 

Well, most of us don't believe the way you do, so telling us that you're soooooo worried that we might end up somewhere that's not so good doesn't affect us. It just makes your argument weaker than it already was.

 

One more thing, even if you DIDN'T take time to listen to what I said, I feel I still owe an apology.  My tone may have come off a little arrogent itself - especially if you just skimmed over the good stuff while trying to decide whose side I was on.  Arrogance is a trap that all of us too often fall into.  I do NOT want to come off that way, so I'll repeat this just in case you missed it:

 

I don't know anything.  In fact, by sheer probability, I have to assume that I currently hold wrong beliefs about at least important matter in this universe.

 

The trick is, you're in exactly the same situation.

 

No matter who you are, you have wrong beliefs.  All of us have to assume that we hold wrong beliefs - which includes me as well as you.  Don't be insulted, and don't kid yourself.  It's healthy to maintain humilty... and not healthy to suppose that anybody can ever really sway people very much through sheer force of argument.

 

And when did I ever say anything about any church?  Or the Bible?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*snort*

 

A LITTLE arrogant? Try "I came off like a self-righteous jerky fool." That would be more like it.

 

If you don't know anything, why the hell are you trying to foist your beliefs off on us? We don't want your unthinking blind faith. I have no interest in being an idiot just so I can say I believe in some myth.

 

And trying to cover your bigotry by telling us that no matter who we are, we have wrong beliefs, because ALL of us have wrong beliefs? That was just stupid.

 

If you're going to try to proselytize, at least come up with a new argument.

 

Don't feed us the same old crap on a different day, we just don't give a rat's ass.

[Lunar Shadow]

shit reality came back I guess I lose

[dr_funkenstein]

...

You call people names.

...

please don't be an idiot for the sake of everyone else on here.

...

 

THE UNIVERSE:

 

I see all these people on here asking for proof or for disproof, evidence or counterevidence about the nature (or even existence) of God.

 

But that's impossible.

 

God's nature or existence cannot be affirmatively proved or disproved by the use of reason, by human minds... or really by anything in this universe.  Sorry, but that's how it is.  This is an ancient philisophical principle which I had thought to be very widely known and accepted until I saw the forums at this site.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well if you assert that a supernatural entity has throughout history actively participated in the natural universe, then we would expect there to be some effects. On no single occasion has an event been demonstrated to have supernatural cause.

 

Not that you could blame anyone for wanting proof.  Of course we WANT proof.  Obviously, that's the way to be sure you can rely on anything in this world.  That's the problem, though: God is most definitely NOT in this world.

 

We can no more prove or disprove anything about God than a resident of Sim City could prove or disprove anything about Bill Gates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except when the resident of Sim City sees things happening throughout the city that have no logical cause within his computer-generated world, he can logically come to the conclusion that an entity may exist outside his world that is influencing his world.

 

We don't see any events happening in our world that do not have a naturalistic explanation.

 

You see, it's a completely different scale altogother that we're talking about.  "One-upage" is my favorite term for this.  The Christian God is someone who is beyond space and time, who operates with omniscience, omnipotence, and eternity... well above and beyond the scope of anything in our space-time continuum.  We can't even begin to comprehend things like this, let alone be able to prove anything about relations between this outside realm and our own little world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You say God is so high above us that it's impossible to even possess knowledge about him. Then what is the point of religion? What is the point of trying to relate to such a God? Either God has some way of relating to us, or he is meaningless. You are choosing to argue that God is meaningless.

 

 

Asking a human to prove or disprove the existence of God is like asking a 2D pac-man to fly the next 747 from Chicago to San Fransisco.  He can't even comprehend the existence of 3 dimensions, let alone take any coherent course of action.  Just the same way, we know little to nothing about what's beyond our universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your analogy, while pretty, fails to convey the point of your argument. How are we like a 2D pac-man? How is knowing about God anything like flying a 747? You fail to explain these points. However, let me take a guess at what you're trying to say. Do you mean to say that God is so infinitely complex that we shouldn't even bother trying to figure out whether he exists or not, because such an effort is doomed to fail; rather, you suggest we should merely accept the fact that our feeble minds lack the ability to ponder this subject and therefore the default position is to believe.

 

How does that make sense?

 

Let's assume for a moment that I accept your statement about the inability to know about God. Why must I therefore automatically believe in his existence? Surely the much more logical approach is to say "you know this whole God thing just spins my pathetic brain round in circles, I'm just giving up."

 

Would the 2D pacman, lacking the ability to pilot a 747, therefore automatically believe in the 747's existence?

 

Hey, when we're really honest, we know little to nothing about ANYTHING.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Therefore we should just swallow theist dogma? I don't get your line of reasoning.

 

If we cannot know very much, then we believe in what we can know and throw away the rest as useless. For example:

 

Prove to me there's not a little green man standing behind you right now.

 

You can't do it.

 

Maybe he's too fast.  Maybe he's an alien and is wearing a cloaking device.  Whatever you want.  The fact is, you really can't KNOW with any certainty that he's not behind you right now, ready to bite your ankles.  Comforting, isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could ask someone else to check for me... and over the many years of my life having not been bitten by a little green man on the ankles I could come to a reasonable conclusion that there is no alien running around permanently out of my field of vision.

 

We can know things to a degree of certainty that allows us to live our lives.

 

You can't know much about anything.  You just have faith that your ankles are safe.  Faith is at the bottom of it all - not knowledge.

 

You have faith that your senses give you some indication of some type of reality.  And so you trust them, and from that trust placed in sensory input, derive facts about this perceived world.  These facts mix together to give you feelingsm, reactions, and "actions" (which are really just all REACTIONS anyway).  You see, faith is what this world is really made of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't need faith to know that my ankles are safe - experience tells me that.

 

Yes, I put my trust in what I am able to observe through my senses, but even my senses can be fooled. Unfortunately though, as a human being, I am unable to separate my consciousness from my brain and so, flawed though my sensory perception may be, it is the only tool I have with which to perceive the world. Should I therefore stop perceiving? Not at all. I merely accept the parameters of my tool and work within them.

 

Feelings are based on facts, which are based on faith.  Feelings, facts, faith.  Faith is at the bottom.  Faith is what it's all about.

The trick then, is what you will place your faith in.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Perhaps a lesson on word definitions is needed here. Where you use the word faith I would substitue the word belief. There is a subtle but important difference between faith and belief. The word faith implies a belief in something despite a lack of, or even in spite of contrary, evidence. To believe that one's senses are relaying accurate information insofar as they can be trusted requires no faith. To believe in the existence of the supernatural does.

 

As the rest of your argument relies on what has been refuted I will not bother to continue.

[Fweethawt]

shit reality came back I guess I lose

Don't sweat it, Jester. The initial post showed many signs of being a message from a plop'n-go visitor. Just give yourself some time. You'll get better at making that call eventually.

[Vigile]

 

 

You are wasting your time on this forum.

 

An endearing intro.

 

You're proud.

 

Quite proud that I'm not as stupid as you. Thank you very much.

 

Oh, and you're judgemental.

 

You call people names.

 

Only when they like yourself are frustratingly stupid and judgmental.

 

or picking on trifles and side-issues while side-stepping the real questions.

 

Uh, no, that's what you christians do. Nice attempt to turn the tables though.

 

You want to convince someone of Christianity or not-Christianity?

 

Not necessarily. We come here to discuss issues we are all interested in. Somehow loser christians like yourself keep coming into our house trying to resave us.

 

This is an ancient philisophical principle which I had thought to be very widely known and accepted until I saw the forums at this site.

 

Bad assumption not based on facts. Tell me how this is a widely accepted principle. It is in fact NOT known.

 

Not that you could blame anyone for wanting proof. Of course we WANT proof. Obviously, that's the way to be sure you can rely on anything in this world.

 

Oh, but your god does blame me for wanting proof. He wants to send me to hell for demanding it. Nice guy your god.

 

You see, it's a completely different scale altogother that we're talking about. "One-upage" is my favorite term for this. The Christian God is someone who is beyond space and time, who operates with omniscience, omnipotence, and eternity... well above and beyond the scope of anything in our space-time continuum. We can't even begin to comprehend things like this, let alone be able to prove anything about relations between this outside realm and our own little world.

 

And you know all these things HOW?

 

Asking a human to prove or disprove the existence of God is like asking a 2D pac-man to fly the next 747 from Chicago to San Fransisco. He can't even comprehend the existence of 3 dimensions, let alone take any coherent course of action. Just the same way, we know little to nothing about what's beyond our universe.

 

For someone who claims it is impossible to know god you sure seem to know a lot about him. Again, you know these things HOW?

 

You can't know much about anything. You just have faith that your ankles are safe. Faith is at the bottom of it all - not knowledge.

 

Uh, bullshit. Strawman.

 

Sure, ideally - we would place our faith in nothing. We can't reasonably trust much of anything because we can't KNOW much of anything. The only rational thing to do, then, is to suspend judgment on all of it. To say neither "yes", nor "no"... but only "I don't know". That's all that a rational person would be able to do.

 

So it's rational to be agnostic? But then you say...

 

But that is the one thing that we absolutely cannot do. We have no choice.

 

We HAVE to trust something as long as we assume that we're alive. We have to wake up, to exist, to react to sensory input. The only option besides choosing something to trust is to die.

 

What will you trust?

 

Uh... uh..., wait. No. Oh, I know! I will trust Mohammad. No. Zues. No, uh... Santa, yes that's it. I will trust in Santa!

 

If you still don't understand the impact of what I'm saying and try to choose "nothing", then you are still by default choosing "yourself".

 

Oh, you're right. Myself. Forget Santa. I trust myself. Truly.

 

And that's sad. You already know you can't trust yourself... unless you really think your own mind is perfect. Is your judgment flawless? Have you considered everything in the entire universe and then made an accurate assessment of the situation?

 

Funny. I don't remember claiming to know everything. I do have my own best interests at heart though. Somehow I get by better than I ever did as a brainwashed christian. Strange.

 

You only believe, with "prior probability" weights in your own mind that come from induction and your past experience... which are in turn based on nothing but blind faith. You THINK that you're so many years old - for really no good reason when you get down to it.

 

Or it could be because my birth certificate tells me.

 

You don't know anything - you just have blind faith... in something - probably just yourself in some way, shape, or form. And that's sad because for the thinking minds among you - you of all people should know that you are not always right. And it's tragic for anyone acquainted with Christianity at all because you of all people should care about what happens if you are wrong.

 

Strawman. Strawman. Strawman.

 

Not that I know much of anything

 

Now on this we can heartily agree. But why is it that you claim to know so much about god's "unknowable" nature?

 

This is to say yeah, I'm a Christian.

 

At least you admit your a christian because you choose to remain ignorant.

 

Simple, relationship-based Christianity is still easily the most believable I've found.

 

Then you must be one of the most gullible people I've ever encountered.

 

You know that any true relations between God and this world would have to come from the top-down - from God and not man. Christianity, in my experience, shows more signs of that than any other religion I've seen - despite the man-made monstrocities that have arisen out of it.

 

 

And no, not despite, but because of.

 

How do I judge that? Experience. Sensory input. Prior probablities. Ultimately blind faith.

 

Strawman! Strawman! Strawman!

 

The Only Wise God.

 

And you know this HOW????

 

...But of course I can't PROVE any of that in a meaningful way to you. Neither could anyone outright disprove the existence of God, or The Force, or perhaps Odin or Thor.

 

Ahh... But I don't need to. You are the one making outragious claims. If I told you that this morning I got up at 7 and had a cup of coffee, you could believe me or not, but probably would because the claim is reasonable. But you claim that an invisible magic skyman who is ultimately unknowable and outside of the universe (impossible) exists and that he sent himself to save me from himself. This is a claim that demands proof. I didn't make it so I don't care if you prove it or not, but the burdon is on you, not me.

 

If you are unwilling to see, nobody can make you see. You can't understand until you're already there. And once you're there, you can't understand what it's like on the other side. It's a commitment and a choice you make... and THEN you understand later on.

 

Oh, I wanted to see. I've been to the other side. I pulled myself out of that hole through education and honest heart felt questioning.

 

God's ways are higher than man's.

 

Bullshit copout escape hatch.

 

You will, in the course of your life, end up giving your entire self to something - be it yourself or God or whatever else in the world. You have no choice but to choose something, but you also can choose what that something is. No random person on a chat board can make that choice for you.

 

I wish people would understand that.

 

Bullshit appeal to emotion.

 

Uh, I don't think I will offer you my welcome to the message board. Others here can decide if they wish to on their own. Your first post doesn't impress me that you have much to offer.

[Vulgaris Prime]

Lemme sum up my response to this ignorant bastard in one image:

 

 

You petty, egotistical, mindless filth. Go peddle your self-righteous screed somewhere else.