Head Spin

[Bro]

It's fragile now, compared to about 2 years ago, but why do I still believe?

 

Well, it's mainly out of fear, I'd say about 75% of it, the rest is plain old uncertainty. But the point is clear for all to see, my faith is borne mainly out of fear.

 

Some days I feel like saying f*ck this all. Then I get anxious, what if I'm wrong? I've heard all the reasoning behind that one, what if I'm wrong. But, what if I am wrong? I'm not quite in the Pascal camp, but pretty close.

 

I don't even believe in hell, or at least I'm 99% certain it isn't biblical. But that 1% is what's causing that 75% fear I guess. I don't really know.

 

I've been researching and studying and praying for as long as I can remember. I mean, what else is needed for me to find closure either way?

 

Fear is the key, when the pain begins, or the darkness descends, they say there are no atheists in foxholes.

 

Sorry, this is more of a ramble than anything else

[ColorMixer]

If it's true and there is a god at the end... what would you say to it?

 

Surely it would be reasonable right? You could say, man I just didn't see you in my life, I wanted to believe, but I just couldn't... why don't you forgive me now? Wouldn't it understand why you had serious doubts? Tell it you're not angry at it but that you sincerely wanted to believe.

 

I look at it this way: if by some slim chance it ended up all being true, I'd first ask why I can't convert right now (at the pearly gates), and if it said that I didn't have enough faith, I'd argue with it and say that I tried to muster faith but I had to be honest with myself. Do you want me to lie to myself just in-case you were real? I'd say that I tried to live the best life that I could, and I was open to receiving you but I didn't hear anything from you.

 

We don't need to make ourselves believe it. If Christianity is truly real... then he should do something to make us believe since he is all powerful right and we are terrible sinful creatures?

 

On the other hand, just look at the messed up aspects of Christianity. This god character supposedly created souls, knowing that they would not turn to him, or if you take the predestined approach, he specifically choose for only a select few to be saved. Either way this god is sending people to hell. He made the rules in the first place, therefore he created unique people so that they would be tortured forever. Is this monster of a "god" worthy of worship??? If it's true, I wouldn't want to worship him anyway.

 

Again with all of this... none of it has been proven. How can you err on the side of caution for something like this? Pascals wager is terrible, because it's applicable to EVERYTHING. You need to worship Allah, Zues, et al. to be on the safe side. Don't let Christianity guilt trip you.

[florduh]

Fear isn't faith. You do not truly believe at all, you only fear.

 

Why aren't you afraid of Allah's Hell? It's just as likely as the Christian version. Why not be afraid that your next incarnation will be a miserable one? Why not live in fear of alien invasion? Maybe you could try being afraid of black cats.

 

I'm not mocking, but there are countless superstitions to fear, why choose the one you did? I venture to say it is merely because it happens to be the one you were taught by family and society. Had you been born much earlier you would have feared witches.

 

Learn critical thinking and use logic.

 

Good luck.

[Franko47]

 

I don't even believe in hell, or at least I'm 99% certain it isn't biblical. But that 1% is what's causing that 75% fear I guess. I don't really know.

 

 

 

Sorry, this is more of a ramble than anything else

 

 

Actually, would you really expect the kind of religious cult that Christianity was, even in it's genesis, to not have some heavy and profound hooks ? Hell fire isn't mentioned in the OT, it's a modern method of scaring people. Look how effective it is, by just "inventing" that little hook. It's got you in a dither. See how easily it works ? Create fear and anxiety in people, and you can get them to believe in all sorts of things. Or bow to your aims. Dictators and tyrants use this method, but it's aim is always singular: intimidation and control.

 

Many of us who departed from the God game have done so mainly because the "god" presented is so irrational. Petty. They would have you believe that a god that creates galaxies for breakfast, quantum mechanics, and designed the human brain would turn to torturing creatures in a hideous eternity because it's got an "ego" problem ?

 

A part of you already realizes how insane that all is. Your better part is looking for sanity and rational existence in the swirling fog of human-created fears and other garbage. Stick around, this site provides clarity, doesn't arm-twist, discusses all angles and you can make up your own mind what you think is real.

[Bro]

Thanks for the replies, I'll stick around.

 

Another thing is that I genuinely do not know for sure. And I don't know how to resolve that.

 

I've read the God Delusion, Godless, Misquoting Jesus and I'm about to read God is Not Great. I've debated and agreed over on the now defunct Richard Dawkins website, and I've watched countless vids on Craig, Hitchens, etc.

 

Really, I think I'm never going to find out and the crazy part is, I don't even know if I want to believe or not.

 

But you are right, and I guess I've always known it. So I guess I'll readjust those percentages and say I believe because of 99% fear. Fear of being totally wrong, wrong about there being a God wrong about there being a hell, and being consigned for eternity in blistering uncomprehendable unadaulterated burning flame.

 

The hell is now.

 

And the really weird thing is this, when I think of there being an afterlife, dying terrifies me, when I think of there being nothing but that endless dark, the dark we (did not) experience before we were born, I'm a lot less fearful.

 

My Father once said to me 'You are scared of dying and you are scared of living'. And he was so right.

 

Thanks again

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Bro,

 

You're not alone in your fear of hell keeping you from making a clean break from Christianity. Many people share this fear with you. It's one of the more insidious aspects of Christianity which has done immeasurable harm to way too many people. Think of the many Christian parents who have worried and cried in their sincere (but misguided) belief that their non-Christian children will be tortured for eternity in hell.

 

You may want to consider this. Try putting the whole issue of hell aside and focus on the rest of Christianity. Study the various Christian doctrines and try to determine whether they make sense to you. For example, how likely was it that Jesus was actually born of a virgin? How likely was it that Jesus actually performed miracles? How likely was it that Jesus actually rose from the dead? How likely was it that the Jesus described in the New Testament actually existed? How likely is it that the god described in the Bible actually exists? I believe you get the point.

 

Once you have made your mind up about the above questions (and any others) and have likely come to the conclusion that none of it could be true, then all that is left is the doctrine of hell. If none of the rest of the Christian religion is true, then there is no reason for you to give any credence to the idea of hell.

[ShallowByThyGame]

 

Fear is the key, when the pain begins, or the darkness descends, they say there are no atheists in foxholes.

 

 

And they are wrong

[Bro]

That's why I like coming here and reading, though I don't post very often.

 

Things are lined up nice and clearly, wherein believers are made to look at the cold hard facts.

 

For example; 'Do you really think Jesus was born of a virgin'? Well, if pushed I'd say, no way, sounds so utterly ridiculous. Brainwashing?

 

It's like waking up one morning and thinking 'I believed all that!?'

[Bro]

 

Fear is the key, when the pain begins, or the darkness descends, they say there are no atheists in foxholes.

 

 

And they are wrong

Thanks for that

 

This a good example of another thing which irritates me about the faith. The lies and/or delusions christians can come up with in an attempt to make others (and themselves) believe.

 

'You won't find any atheists in foxholes' said the smug and over confident christian to the unknowing prospective christian.

 

They spout all this until they really do believe it

 

Makes me sick, it really does

[WhyBaby]

I've been researching and studying and praying for as long as I can remember. I mean, what else is needed for me to find closure either way?

 

After all your researching, studying and praying, what would an answer from god look like?

an intellectual or philosophical rationale? a eureka moment where it all makes sense? a spiritual experience? angelic visitors? having all your questions answered? issues resolved?

 

I can relate to this very well. I was a completely entrenched, dedicated, "strong Christian" for most of my life. My sense of meaning and purpose in life came completely from my faith and Christian worldview.

 

The problem was that I always had doubts lurking underneath it all, but I could never face them because I had too much of my identity wrapped up in the faith. I thought there was something wrong with me that I kept doubting my faith and periodically spent hours crying and praying to God to help me resolve things.

 

In '93 I was at a place like that and while I was praying, I felt/heard inside of me "Who you are is a child of God". I thought immediately of Romans 8:14 "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," Wow! That kept me in the fold for a long time. At the time, I went from fundie to Vineyard charismatic.

 

But you know what? My doubts and questions were never answered. As that experience faded, I was left with the same results. Although the experience was profound and seemed powerful at the time, it was still something that was generated as a thought in my own head. And I still had the same unanswered questions about the inerrancy of the bible, creationism, hell, character of god, other religions, etc. that I won't get into here.

 

More recently, just before de-converting, I realized I still had a lot of the same unanswered questions and unresolved issues and more. I had to ask myself why I couldn't get a straight answer from god. If he's the parent and I'm the child, isn't it up to him to speak to me in a way that I can understand? Why should I have to beg for answers or a resolution to my issues and fears?

 

This time around, I wouldn't let it go. I started reading, researching and questioning. I figured a god of truth would applaud a search for truth, right? At first I thought, "why doesn't god answer me?", then "what if there is no god to answer?"

 

Eventually, I stopped expecting god or anyone else to tell me what to think and started thinking more for myself. I don't like labels, but I'm essentially an atheist at this point. I'm still exploring spirituality from a humanist standpoint.

 

Like you, I still have a lot of fear - what if I'm wrong, what if god is mad at me, etc. It's going to take time to undo decades of conditioning, but it's worth it to me.

 

If you choose to keep searching and questioning, you may find that your feelings and automatic responses lag behind what reason is telling you. That's OK. Be patient with yourself and keep researching. This site can be an excellent source of encouragement as well as debate, depending on what you need at the moment.

 

Good luck, and I hope this helps!

[Snowflake]

Another thing is that I genuinely do not know for sure. And I don't know how to resolve that.

 

Fear of being totally wrong, wrong about there being a God wrong about there being a hell, and being consigned for eternity in blistering uncomprehendable unadaulterated burning flame.

 

The hell is now.

 

I remember the fear of hell, the fear of even questioning the faith. It's terrible that christianity does this. My deconversion was a gradual process. The doubts came well before I allowed myself to begin to actively question my faith. I remember living in terror that I would accidentally commit the unpardonable sin and be banished to hell forever as well.

 

What helped me was to learn about the origins of the Bible, I read the book Who Wrote The Bible by Richard Friedman, read up on what the original intent of the Pentateuch (first 5 books of the Old Testament) meant to the Jewish faith, which was completely different from what I was taught as a charismatic christian, things like that. After I was convinced that the Bible wasn't quite what I thought it was, my faith unraveled rather quickly, along with any ideas that I had about hell.

 

Knowledge is power!

[JohnK]

 

Some days I feel like saying f*ck this all. Then I get anxious, what if I'm wrong? I've heard all the reasoning behind that one, what if I'm wrong. But, what if I am wrong? I'm not quite in the Pascal camp, but pretty close.

 

 

I have heard so many stories of believers who are paralyzed in their faith because of the fear of hell and punishment. In some severe cases this can be likened to a paralyzing, debilitating disease where every thought and every action by the believer becomes subject to this fear. How crazy and how terrible it all is! What kind of sadistic god does this to his followers?

 

Pascal's Wager basically says you should believe in the Christian god because if you do the worst thing that can happen is you die and receive no punishment, while if you die an unbeliever the worst thing that can happen is you burn in hell. So you might as well choose to be a believer since you'll have everything to gain and nothing to lose. But here's the thing: you ABSOLUTELY DO lose something if you believe but it turns out there's no Christian god and no afterlife. You lose the only life you will ever have to fear and worshiping something that doesn't exist! If that's not a loss, I don't know what is.

 

Bro, it seems that you have already read and studied many viewpoints that challenge or go against the Christian faith. I encourage you to keep reading and looking for the truth. Just look at the bible which shows every indication of being another man-made religious text. It is full of contradictions. It has talking snakes and talking donkeys in it. It shows unmistakable evidence of plagiarism, corruption and mistranslations, both by its supposed authors and the copyists over the years. Why in the world should you or I or anyone else believe in anything it has to say, especially regarding the afterlife or hell?

[Hydroman74]

Pascal's Wager basically says you should believe in the Christian god because if you do the worst thing that can happen is you die and receive no punishment, while if you die an unbeliever the worst thing that can happen is you burn in hell. So you might as well choose to be a believer since you'll have everything to gain and nothing to lose.

 

Well, there's also the problem of choosing a belief system to follow out of fear. Is that what the this christian god wants? Does he want us to seek and follow him because we are scared shitless?

 

Recently I was visited by a missionary with whom I had the pleasure of serving with on the mission field. He knew that I was not attending church anymore because my former pastor had told him. He shared several heart warming stories with me about his life, and afterwards I told him I was no longer a believer. He then went into a different mode. He read some verses out of Deuteronomy of how the Hebrews would follow YHWH and then rebel. He read that God would punish the Hebrews for their rebellion by sending diseases, famine, death, etc. in order to bring them back to himself. He explained that the same thing would happen to me and my family if I didn't start serving this christian god again. He even said that he had seen it happen over and over to different people he knew. So, did I jump up and say, "Praise Jebus!" and start living for god again? Hell to the NO. Why would I want to live for this god out of fear and not love?

 

And then when I thought about it more, I realized that even he, as a man who has lived for his god for most of his life, has a wife who is always sick, has a daughter who can't get pregnant, and had a father who passed away recently as an unbeliever, etc. What does that tell me? It tells me that it doesn't matter if you live for this christian god or not, good and bad things happen to everyone. It's just nature.

[JohnK]

 

And then when I thought about it more, I realized that even he, as a man who has lived for his god for most of his life, has a wife who is always sick, has a daughter who can't get pregnant, and had a father who passed away recently as an unbeliever, etc. What does that tell me? It tells me that it doesn't matter if you live for this christian god or not, good and bad things happen to everyone. It's just nature.

 

One of the main reasons that religion flourished in the ancient world, and still does to some extent, is because humans were (and still are) trying to make sense of this world. We want to believe that somehow there is some kind of rhyme or reason to the good and bad things that happen to us. We want to be able to do a checklist of A, B and C so that if the right god is appeased by us doing them, good things will happen to us. Our ancestors, going as far back as the hominids, were fearful and superstitious because they had very little insight into the world we live in. Now we know better. As you said, it's just nature. Things happen, whether they be "good" or "bad" from our point of view. All we can do as individual human beings is make the most of our short stay here on earth, and enjoy it the best we can.

[Llwellyn]

 

you're wrong about something: the theology of hell IS biblical.

[Bro]

 

you're wrong about something: the theology of hell IS biblical.

Hell on earth maybe, but not a literal place with a firey lake or what have you.

 

Hell was the burning refuse tip located SW of Jerusalem, it's where they'd throw their refuse and even dead criminals. It was where children were sacrificed and where idolatry was practised (II Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 19:6) and where later offal and refuse were slowly burned. Thus the place was used as an analogy of 'the dead burning in hell'.

 

Gehenna comes from Gê' Hinnōm, literally: valley of Hinnom.

 

I've studied this intensely for obvious reasons touched upon above