Help from the GODS lol

[vargo]

OK here is what's going one. I play fantasy yahoo football PRO PICKEM.

They have a forum post. This one guy named emh. Every year posts something once every week about god and jesus, this week he posted the God dose exists bla bla. link (http://www.proofgodexists.org/)

 

I usually ignore him, But this time I sent him a letter that I got from a website.

 

This is what I sent him via e-mail.

 

my source of info- Link

 

Dear Christian:

I have heard the message of salvation many times: we are all sinners, and we can have forgiveness and eternal life if we confess and accept Jesus as Savior and Lord. I have heard that there can be no morality outside of God's laws, and that no one can be truly good without being transformed by the Spirit. I have also heard that there is no peace, love, joy, or meaning without Christ. Christians feel that unbelievers are empty slaves to carnality and selfish pride, unable to grasp the truth, and must humble themselves before God's plan.

 

I have heard that the bible contains the "inspired word of God" -a message of ultimate importance- and that many scholars claim to have proven its uniqueness and reliability. Some Christians say that they have verified the truth by personal experience.

 

This is all very interesting. I want the best for my life. If there is an eternal paradise, I would hate to miss it; and I definitely would not want to roast in a literal hell. It would be unwise to ignore something like a god, especially one who takes interest in my life. I would ask a thousand questions of an all-knowing mind.

 

You and I breathe the air of the same planet, and truth should be the same for us both. The basic question which should be asked about any religion is: is it TRUE? If the basic claims of theism, sin, miracles, and revelation are true, then maybe your "good news" is truly good.

 

However, I am an unbeliever. It's not that I particularly want to doubt; it's just that I have no choice. I have examined your claims and I am not convinced that they are true. I may even wish them to be true (or I may not) -but I am not so naive to think that something can be true or false just because I desire it. There must be some reason, beyond wishful thinking.

 

I'm sure you agree. You certainly doubt that thunder is caused by the anger of Zeus, or that Allah is the one true god. Like myself, you see them as myths created to explain the unknown, to give life some kind of meaning, to enhance culture, or to empower the ruling caste. They are born in human imagination, and can be explained without reference to a supernatural world. There are many gods which Christians reject. I just believe in one less god than you do. The reasons that you might give for your atheism toward Roman gods are likely the same reasons I would give for not believing in Jesus.

 

You and I are alike. We have minds which perceive, analyze, integrate, and react. Our only difference in this regard is that you have judged (or assumed) the premises of your religion to be factual, while I have not. You would not want to commit yourself to an idea of which you were not convinced, would you?

 

You are welcome to try and convince me that Christianity is true, but you should know that I am not going to "just believe" by faith. I will demand substantiation. If you say that the bible is reliable, I will ask you to prove it. I may ask why the bible contains so many errors and contradictions. If you are not familiar with the findings of critical bible scholars with diverse points of view, I will view your conclusions with suspicion.

 

Neither will I believe because millions of others do. Truth is not determined by vote. If it were, the earth would still be flat.

 

I will ask if your conclusions are logical. If you want me to consider your beliefs, then be ready to tackle questions like these:

 

 

Is there a higher judge of truth than reason?

 

After centuries of bitter religious fighting, why is your mind suddenly blessed with the true way of thinking?

 

What is morality, and is it possible without a deity?

 

Is the violent history of the Church consistent with a message of love?

 

What is a contradiction, and what would the bible have to say in order to be discrepant?

 

Why did your god create evil? (Isaiah 45:7)

 

Is there anything wrong with skepticism?

 

Why should inner religious experience point to anything outside of the mind?

 

Historians must assume natural regularity over time, so how can the bible be completely historical when it contains miracles, which violate nature?

 

What is a god, exactly, and why do you think one exists?

 

What could be said about Christianity which, if true, would make it false? If you can't answer that question, then your conclusions may be based on something other than honesty. You can't expect me to respectfully listen to you if you are closed to full, honest inquiry-if you are unwilling to allow, theoretically, that you might be wrong. I am open-minded and willing to change my position, if warranted. Can you also be fair enough to follow the facts, wherever they lead?

Many unbelievers have carefully considered these questions, perhaps even more deeply than you have. And some of us were at one time just as religious as you are now. After honest examination, I am convinced that the bible is primitive mythology, that there is no evidence for a god, that Christians are not more moral or tolerant than atheists, and that religion has caused more harm than good. Why should my conclusions be less valid than yours?

 

You feel that the complexity of life demands a designer; but the mind of such a creature would be at least as complex as the rest of nature, requiring a designer itself, wouldn't it? If everything needs a cause, then there can be no first cause; and if you nonetheless assert a First Cause, I will ask how you know (assume) that there can be an uncaused cause. If a deity can be thought eternal, so can the universe. God-belief does not answer any question; it just replaces a mystery with a mystery: if god made anything, who made god?

 

If the mind of a god is the measure for morality, then there is no way to measure if god's actions are "good." The murderous, sexist, intolerant activities of the biblical deity and the presence of chaos, ugliness and pain in the universe portray your "supreme" god as supremely immoral, by my standards. I could invent a nicer god than that, and so could you.

 

If you have new concrete evidence or rational arguments, then I will be glad to hear them. But please don't waste my time preaching the same old sermons I have been hearing for years.

 

I am quite happy with life. I have purpose and peace of mind -I prefer goodwill over repentance. I don't want to die, but I accept death as natural. I sense no need to worship, confess, or apologize to anyone. I feel no guilt, and therefore no desire to be "saved" from anything: sin is a primitive idea, and salvation is religion's offer to solve a problem of its own making.

 

I happily admit I am a skeptic; and I am proud of the way I think. Although humans are not perfect, I respect the human mind and I am optimistic about our abilities to continue to solve life's problems, with reason and kindness.

 

I don't claim to have all the answers; but if you want me to hear your message than I will ask you to listen to mine.

 

 

This is what I got response.

 

good morning,

 

if you are serious about learning more about God and who He REALLY is as opposed to how many believers display Him through their acts of violence and such, the best thing i suggest you do is read and study the Bible yourself and ask people you know yourself who are true believers about anything you have questions over.  Building a relationship with God is a process that doesnt happen over night through one encounter contrary to popular belief just as you usually don't know all there is to know about someone or completely trust someone until you get to know them better and God doesnt demand any less.  It is okay to have your questions and God can handle them and invite them.  and I agree with you that people shouldnt believe something just because everyone else does and neither does God promote this as He proved in thessolanians by telling us to test everything, telling the women who came to Jesus's tomb to make sure His body wasn't there before telling everyone He rose, or by telling His disciples to feel His skin and see and feel the piercings from the nails to confirm it was Him when He rose.  No one will ever have a true relationship with God unless they explore it themselves and many believers miss out on much of what God wants to give them and further solidifying their own belief in Him by not digging in to it and checking it out more themselves.  And I am speaking as one who hasn't been a believer all my life.  I am currently 33 and have only really believed for the last 3 years of my life as I was not raised in church like a lot of hard-core believers so i do not believe simply because i've always been told to but because i'm convinced and He has revealed Himself to me through a life changing personal encounter with Him as you mentioned many have had and quite similar to what Paul experienced in Acts 9.  And i'm not just some uneducated person who hasn't seen much of the other evidence as i served in the military for 10 years, have a master's with honors, a 140 iq, and a wife who is an attorney and equally blessed and intelligent but we just happen to believe in God and give Him credit for it all.  Now having said all that, i will attempt to address some of the questions you had but of course cannot fully answer them all and do not profess to have all the answers about God just as you conceded yourself about life and there are many questions you may have that can only be answered by Him personally through a personal relationship with Him much like i have and anyone needs to have to REALLY get to know who He really is.  and as i said before, this is a process that takes the rest of your life to nurture through constant prayer, reading of the Bible, discussing it with others, going to church to get even more incite, and other things as such as deciding to choose a relationship with God over other things and beliefs in life that vie for your attention is just that.....a conscious effort choice.  and one thing you will learn is that that is all God requires from anyone to have a relationship with Him and to inherit eternal life is a heartfelt effort, not perfection, and only He and you know if you are putting a sincere effort in to living as He wants you to which is to love Him first through loving others as you do yourself.  and as proof of this, even Jesus stumbled and fell three times while carrying His cross but rather than staying down, got back up and continued to show that He may not have completed it perfectly, but He completed it through a faithful selfless effort and that is perfection in God's eyes.  And the bottom line is, i can offer you all the evidence you want and answer all the questions you want but you eventually have to be willing to consider the evidence and examine it yourself for proof is in the eye of the beholder.  What is truth to one person is not to another and that is the beauty of freewill and what lets you know what you do believe in is genuine belief which is exactly what God's goal was in granting it.  He wants an unconditional loving relationship with those who choose to and will never force anyone to love Him just as you want anyone who loves you to do the same and would love them even when they messed up at times if they were simply willing to admit their fault, genuinely apologize for it, and then move on and try better from there. 

 

 

Now Just wondering what would be the best respones back to him.

 

 

Thanks

[Checkmate]

Why bother with a reply? With his first sentence he assumes that YOU are seeking "God", as well as assuming that you have not read the bible. This person strikes me as a typical deluded Christian. Totally closed off to reason and rational thought. Faith is everything. He will insist that YOU set aside your unbelief and come to god fully accepting "His Truth".

 

I wouldn't waste any further words with this human. Debating with believers is like "Alice's Adventures in Wonderland". You're at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party and NOTHING is as it seems. Words are fluid and have no static meaning. Utter nonsense.

 

I wouldn't bother. You gave him a good retort already with Dan Barker's letter. From his reply, it's obvious he disregarded it entirely. Why waste more effort?

[vargo]

 

I can see your point.

 

but man I hate this guy.

 

I just want to have the last word

[Kryten]

. . .  And i'm not just some uneducated person who hasn't seen much of the other evidence as i served in the military for 10 years, have a master's with honors, a 140 iq, and a wife who is an attorney and equally blessed and intelligent but we just happen to believe in God and give Him credit for it all.

 

Right... He has a decent IQ and a Master's Degree, but he writes like that? Someone should introduce him to a writing tool called a "paragraph". Have him look it up...

 

He claims to have seen evidence? If you really want to pursue this, have him show you the evidence. Remember that you cannot prove a prophecy was fulfilled in the same book that made the prophecy. He will not be able to produce any real fulfilled prophecies, nor can he come up with any writings OUTSIDE THE BIBLE that Bible-Jesus existed. Nobody who lived from 0-50ce ever wrote a thing about him. If he really existed, he sure didn't draw the attention of anyone who could write-- and there were lots of writers. Nazereth didn't even exist until about 200ce.

 

If he tries to appeal to the authority of the bible as being the "word of god", then ask about all the contradictions and errors. Compare the different geneologies of Jesus in Matthew and Luke. If he tries to say one of them is Mary, ask him why the bible made a mistake and SAID it was Joseph?

 

Have him read 2Kings 10 and then compare it to Hosea 1:4...

 

Ask him why God couldn't defeat chariots of iron (Judges 1:19)?? Even though god predicted he would (Joshua 17:18)??

 

Have him try to reconcile the four different resurrection accounts. Ask why the most important story in the universe-- that if you accept you get heaven and if you disbelieve you get tortured forever and ever (amen), ask why if it's so important, there are no two stories that agree. In fact, many of the details are mutually exclusive to each other. If it's so important, why didn't god make the story more consistent?? Why is there NO physical evidence that it ever occurred?? Why are there no outside accounts? Why were the stories not told until decades later??

 

You could use reason, and ask what happens to all the little muslim or hindu children born around the world. Will they fry in hell because they believed what their parents taught them?? Will god defy Hebrews 9:27, and allow them a second chance so that they can be presented with the gospel story and then get a chance to believe?? Why don't we get the same chance?? Why are we-- using the brain god supposedly created for us, judged guilty for not believing when the evidence is clearly against such a thing happening?

 

Why does god promise miracles but, when you ask, get a response that it wasn't His Will or that He can't be coerced or made to do parlor tricks??? WTF??

 

Or just delete his messages. Let him pay his tithe, work for the church, give up Sundays and Wednesday nights, and feel guilty for being a human. Whatever.

[quicksand]

I am bored at work this week, so here's a crack at it. Oh and in both of my leagues this week - I stomped some major fantasy ass!

 

 

if you are serious about learning more about God and who He REALLY is as opposed to how many believers display Him through their acts of violence and such, the best thing i suggest you do is read and study the Bible yourself and ask people you know yourself who are true believers about anything you have questions over.

And what if the believer happens to be Pat Robertson, or Fred Phelphs, or Martin Luther and his ire against women. If he does say no to any of them, then he is committing the True Scottsman fallacy.

 

He contradicts himself there with telling you to read it yourself and then consult. And even if you do read for yourself, what part of the bible are you to acknowledge - just the lovey-dovey parts or the overly violent parts? Ask him which is valid from the bible in this dichotomy. If he does, he commits special pleading.

 

God is plenty violent and Jesus commits plenty enough acts of violence himself. Really no need to even look at the actions of other Christians.

 

Building a relationship with God is a process that doesnt happen over night through one encounter contrary to popular belief just as you usually don't know all there is to know about someone or completely trust someone until you get to know them better and God doesnt demand any less.  It is okay to have your questions and God can handle them and invite them.

This is a really nothing more than a false analogy. While this might apply to people, it can not apply to a god, unless of course the god is a person and then is not a god. Unless, he wants to deny that such a law of identity exists. He can do it, but then he will not have much in the way of an argument. In other words, he's refuting himself.

 

I am currently 33 and have only really believed for the last 3 years of my life as I was not raised in church like a lot of hard-core believers so i do not believe simply because i've always been told to but because i'm convinced and He has revealed Himself to me through a life changing personal encounter with Him as you mentioned many have had and quite similar to what Paul experienced in Acts 9.

Hot for Jesus in other words.

 

He's basing his whole conversion experience on a hallucination.

 

He proved in thessolanians by telling us to test everything, telling the women who came to Jesus's tomb to make sure His body wasn't there before telling everyone He rose, or by telling His disciples to feel His skin and see and feel the piercings from the nails to confirm it was Him when He rose.

Well, here you could always point out the contradictions in these so-called resurrection accounts between the gospels if he really thinks that He wants you to test everything. It should be no surprise as the oral traditions centered around the the so-called apostles did not have a NT to read and root out contradictions.

 

and one thing you will learn is that that is all God requires from anyone to have a relationship with Him and to inherit eternal life is a heartfelt effort, not perfection, and only He and you know if you are putting a sincere effort in to living as He wants you to which is to love Him first through loving others as you do yourself.

One long emotional appeal.

 

and as proof of this, even Jesus stumbled and fell three times while carrying His cross but rather than staying down, got back up and continued to show that He may not have completed it perfectly, but He completed it through a faithful selfless effort and that is perfection in God's eyes.

The Romans didn't start crucifying until latter 4-th century if I recall.

 

This is all BS and inserted later into then forming canon of the bible as opposing Christian groups poised for supremacy over their coreligionists for the support of Roman state. Matters like the trinity were settled by imperial decree and not from the bible itself. Funny thing, in the matter of the trinity, although it is offical doctrine of mainstream christianity it is actually heretical and has very little biblical support. But that's an aside.

 

What is truth to one person is not to another and that is the beauty of freewill and what lets you know what you do believe in is genuine belief which is exactly what God's goal was in granting it.  He wants an unconditional loving relationship with those who choose to and will never force anyone to love Him just as you want anyone who loves you to do the same and would love them even when they messed up at times if they were simply willing to admit their fault, genuinely apologize for it, and then move on and try better from there.

Ask him if Jesus had freewill? Ask him Judas had freewill.

 

Again, more of an appeal to emotion once again.

[Antlerman]

And the bottom line is, i can offer you all the evidence you want and answer all the questions you want but you eventually have to be willing to consider the evidence and examine it yourself for proof is in the eye of the beholder.  What is truth to one person is not to another and that is the beauty of freewill and what lets you know what you do believe in is genuine belief which is exactly what God's goal was in granting it.

Firstly, this guy sounds like he's on amphetamines, or maybe just a neurotic. Jesus is his drug addiction. Ask him what drug addiction he replaced 3 years ago with Jesus? Was it meth, heroin, or crack? Just curious.

 

That said; ask him if he is equally willing to consider that he is wrong. If he is, then likewise he should just "not believe" first in order to fully "not believe". Tell him his saying we need to believe first should tell him and everyone else that there is insufficient evidence to "convince someone to believe". You have to believe first? How's that proof? He needs to recognize that this shows he can't offer any convincing evidence that stands on it’s own without preconditions. He is admitting that belief in supernatural stories is contingent upon believing without evidence.

 

Also, it's "Truth is in the eye of the beholder," not "proof in the eye..." You should ask him if accepts relativism then, since that's what that's referring to. Guys just a fountain of blathering clichés, isn't he?

 

BTW, that original letter sent to the Christian is beautifully written! I will save a copy of that one.

[Ouroboros]

Now Just wondering what would be the best respones back to him.

Thanks

Was the response from him formatted the way you quoted it? Just cut and paste?

 

Just wonder, because he said he had 140 iq. And it's supposed to be "IQ" not "iq".

 

I guess my IQ is higher knowing that...

 

Anyway. I don't think he read your message, so the response may be:

 

"You're delusional.

Get real.

Read my previous e-mail.

Answer the questions, or you have nothing to say."

[Amethyst]

My response would be to simply block his e-mail as spam, since that's what it is.