Neon Genesis Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I never understood why so many Christians like Jacob and praise him as the hero in the story. I personally can't stand Jacob and I felt sorry for Esau. Jacob knew Esau would easily give up his birthright for hunger and tricked him, not only that but he also tricked his father into giving him the blessings. Did anyone else hate Jacob and felt sorry for Esau? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 He's a momma's boy that didn't have the balls to stand up for himself and not deceive his dad. Their "god" was stupid and weak in not being able to "overturn" the blessing made by deception. It demonstrates how the power of the blessing was essentially like the flow of water or electricity and that, once it happened, it couldn't be undone or happen again (ie. his "power" to bless again was all used up). We're to understand that things were just fine and dandy once Esau eventually came into his own but Jacob never really tries to make it up to him (the Jews demonize the offspring of Esau instead of understanding what had been done and how benevolent Esau truly was in this situation). The whole of Jacob are the offspring and descendants of liars/cheats/deceivers and their "god" is fully aware of this, supports it and seems to encourage it (Abram did it before this and he seemed to encourage all his "representatives" to do similar actions). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I'm reading David Plotz's "Good Book". He has some prime words for the Abramic characters. Good take on the bible from a funny jewish guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I never saw Jacob as a hero of the faith. But, his fame as a hero of the Jewish heritage was probably initially for his deceitfulness and the ability to leverage things to his own advantage. It was probably a culturally sanctioned set of behaviors and traits which he typified. In other words, since the Bible is NOT the story of the same God implementing the same morality and goodness or even personality throughout history, Jacob's story doesn't have to be admirable by today's standards. He was just a reflection of what was important to people "Back in the day." It's only when you have to make sense of a religion whose god is supposedly "the same yesterday, today and forever" that Jacob's character becomes troubling. It's so much easier to understand the Bible when you are not shackled by dogma! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 He certainly lived up to the worst of the basic Jewish stereo types. He screwed his brother out of his inheritance via conniving and abuse of the law. What the bible doesn't say is that after his father died he moved to Florida, telephoned his mother every day and went to the diner at 4 so he could get the Sr special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 Yeah, I never quite understood why Jacob was supposedly such a great guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I don't really get how Jacob is amazing either. He's a jerk, but then again, most of the "heros" in the Bible are assholes. Also, as an interesting take on the whole Jacob story (while fictional, I think it's more "real" than the fucking Bible) I recommend "The Red Tent" by Anita Diamant. While it doesn't make Jacob exactly villain, it shows a much more human character than just some jackoff who got lucky off a dickhead god. And I personally like when Dinah runs around the camp after the slaughter of Shechem by Simon and Levi, and curses Jacob and every one of his sons. It makes me smile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Objet_trouve24 Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 Kinda left me wondering "wait...was I supposed to be rooting for THAT asshole???" I was told the answer lies in the prodigal son story. The father is kind of harsh to the older brother, remember? But I was like "Yeah, but he didn't HATE the older brother! God HATED Esau!" Never got a good answer to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagan Posted April 22, 2010 Share Posted April 22, 2010 I don't think Jacob and the other losers in the Old Testament were ever meant to be heroes. They were characters with realistic faults and problems, which regular people could relate to. What they all had in common was that they trusted in God. And careful with the Jewish stereotype stuff – that's applying a medieval-influenced view of Jews to an ancient text. An anachronistic reading, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueGiant Posted April 23, 2010 Share Posted April 23, 2010 Being an oldest child, yeah, I had a few problems with the Esau story. Especially since my brother is the kind of guy who can sell ice to Eskimos (for reference: he did it in St. Louis in July, location, location, location, people). Of course, I didn't exactly like that final plague thing in Egypt either. Seems that the surest way to get screwed in the Bible is to be born first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Objet_trouve24 Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 I don't think Jacob and the other losers in the Old Testament were ever meant to be heroes. Tell that to SUPERBOOK! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IIlH1USaEQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g648t9hQB3c&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shion Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 Ugh, Jacob... I don't know what's worse that he actually became a leader of a bunch of goat herders or that he got to retire in an egyptian pleasure palace? Either which way he was hardly the moralist of the century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagan Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 I don't think Jacob and the other losers in the Old Testament were ever meant to be heroes. Tell that to SUPERBOOK! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IIlH1USaEQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g648t9hQB3c&feature=related Ugh... what was that? Ash from Pokemon and the Japanese pedophile's dream take their portable trash can to Scotland or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 I don't think Jacob and the other losers in the Old Testament were ever meant to be heroes. Tell that to SUPERBOOK! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IIlH1USaEQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g648t9hQB3c&feature=related I didn't know middle easterners were red heads with blue eyes! WOW! :-P And, of course, Jacob didn't REALLY trick his dad....it was Rebecca's conniving ways! The honored tradition of blaming the woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lunaticheathen Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 Honestly, even before the novel The Red Tent, the "rape of Dinah" story really pissed me off more than the stealing of a blessing. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/34.html#1 Jacob promoted the mutilation of every male in a whole city, as a fucking bride price for the "defilement" of his ONLY DAUGHTER, (named, anyway) then tacitly approved of his sons, Simon and Levi, who were never punished by god either, sneaking in at night, slaughtering the whole town while they were recovering from circumcision, and looting everything, including the women and girls. And it's not like the bible is ever clear on what Dinah actually felt, just that she was "defiled", like a thing. And she couldn't legally marry after that, could she? Made her a widow in her teens, most likely. Just another example of this "godly man's" cruelty and insanity, which he passed to his sons, apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Objet_trouve24 Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 I don't think Jacob and the other losers in the Old Testament were ever meant to be heroes. Tell that to SUPERBOOK! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IIlH1USaEQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g648t9hQB3c&feature=related I didn't know middle easterners were red heads with blue eyes! WOW! :-P And, of course, Jacob didn't REALLY trick his dad....it was Rebecca's conniving ways! The honored tradition of blaming the woman! Because men ARE just victims after all! And of course middle easterners were red heads with blue eyes. And jesus was blond, white and republican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 And jesus was blond, white and republican. Recent evidence has revealed that he may have actually switched to the Tea Party. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Objet_trouve24 Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 And jesus was blond, white and republican. Recent evidence has revealed that he may have actually switched to the Tea Party. mwc /bangs head against the wall Oh yes,of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hungrydingo Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 Yeah, it's amazing how some very bad people like Jacob, Lot, and David are considered heroes in the bible despite doing some pretty terrible things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted May 4, 2010 Share Posted May 4, 2010 Yeah I was rooting for Esau. Well at least the pagan gods seemed to have given him a covenant before the Ol'mighty lard broke his promise again and Jacob even went without, and Joseph didnt get to rule Canaan either. So Esau won at the end if you really think about it, and without gods help he did so right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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