On pagans and neopagans

[whatifidontwantausername?]

Hello.

 

You may have noticed that I have not been to Ex-Christian for quite some time, though I would be willing to bet that few of you noticed since I rarely post anything good or contraversial. The reason I left for that short period of time was to distance myself from a sort of madness I had seen here.

 

I left around the time when such great threads as "Pagans, Witches, are F*CK#NG Morons Too" That thread upset me in ways I find hard to comprehend. I have said many times that while I do not agree with the beliefs of people, they have a right to believe how they do. I needed to write something here because it is my best way to vent.

 

Look, I know that the beliefs of Pagans are far fetched, but the attitude that most pagans carry with it is not one to be scorned. Most pagans let you believe what you want, whether that belief means the Christian God or no gods at all, and simply ask you do the same. Hard to do sometimes, I know but by no means impossible.

 

I can't really say anymore, I suppose more will come later when a few of my friends read this. Look, you are entitled to your oppinion but when you are so beligerent as to say that someone who believes differently than you is f****** moron then you are no better than a fundamentalist.

 

Sorry to have been a bother but I needed to get that off of my chest.

 

-Jake

[Amethyst]

Look, you are entitled to your oppinion but when you are so beligerent as to say that someone who believes differently than you is f****** moron then you are no better than a fundamentalist.

 

This, to me, is the definition of a fundy. Here you'll see Christians referred to as fundies, but it can apply to any religion or philosophy.

 

Sorry to have been a bother but I needed to get that off of my chest.

 

No bother at all.

[Java]

Some people like to try to hold on to pure secular thought, and scorn those who find something "extra" in the numinous.

 

Pease stay, Username-less-one. Joke 'em if they can't take a fuck, ya know?

[LadyFeline]

You're not the only one that took off, dear. I fairly well faded into the background after that fiasco, myself. Seems like this place has become less "Ex-Christian.net" and more "Bash anyone who holds any belief in anything we don't agree with.net"

 

Sad, really... Then again, seems like a lot of places have been taking a turn for the worst...

[whatifidontwantausername?]

I am not going to leave this site, I have too much time invested into it to leave. I was merely dissapointed with those people who make such brash comments as to say that all people of ANY religion are morons.

 

I was worried because I have seen a pattern in many other forums that I belong to. My beliefs, even for a Pagan, are often seen as misguided at best and evil at worst. So many, many of the paganism websites that I used to belong to have, over time, turned hostile towards anyone with a "far out" belief. First it starts with one or two users saying things such as "Why are you even here?" or "Your kind don't belong here!" I have seen such phenomenon with Ex-Christian with people telling apologetics that they should not be at this website, and then the thing with Pagans... well it was annoying.

 

Then once the masses agree with the people who start off by saying that such and such a person does not belong the mods and admins give way, if not by restricting access then by muting a person for voicing an opinion that is not thought of as cosher. I have seen it with so many other websites, and I do not wish to see this one sink to that level.

 

But really, it is a community thing... once people start pounding that if you don't agree then you aren't welcome... well you kill what kept me to this website.

 

-Jake (AKA Username-less-one)

[Kuroikaze]

I, as well, am not totally against religions, or even the numinous. Nor am I pretentious enough to believe that logic and reason were the only driving factors that made me leave christianity.

 

very few, if any, people ever make choices purely on reason.

 

Though I am an agnostic, there are still several religions that I like, part of being a religion major in college makes it hard for me to simply walk away from every having a thought or concern for religious beliefs. Of couse the only religions I follow at all, have very general concepts of god or no concept of him at all, Like the Tao or Confucinism.

 

I like Buddhism too, but I'm probably to lazy to ever be a Buddhist

 

The only explanation I can offer for people who say bad things about wicca and such, is to say that us ex-christians are an odd bunch.

 

While we reject xianity, many of us have been indoctrinated for so many years that it can be a real uphill battle to seperate the xianity from ourselves. Wiccanism and any other religion for that matter, is so looked down upon in christianity that it can be hard to get clear of the beliefs that tell us all those other religions are worthless.

 

I think its one of the reasons that so many ex-christians become athiests. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not putting down athiesm either. but christianity does have some cult like qualities, and when we leave we naturally develop a fear of any group that might tell us what to believe.

 

I think we fear ourselves as well. After all, many of us believed the lies of xianity for years, and we fear how easily we allowed ourselves to be deluded by them.

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has been afraid of falling into that same trap with another belief system.

 

I know that it can be annoying when people say nasty things like that, but try and cut them a little slack. Many of us, the ones who have left recently even more so, are still very confused about what they believe. The whole idea of chosing what you believe is so foriegn to xianity that it takes a while to get used to

[nirrti]

Hi, I'm so glad you pointed this out. Although I'm no longer a Christian, I'm not an athiest either and I sometimes feel if I express what I do believe, I'll just get ostrasized. Athough I choose not to use labels, I do believe in a life-force or a divine presence that's a part of everything, nothing like the angry old man on a throne I was taught about. I hate it when fundamentalist Christians brand everything outside their religion as "athiest" but I hate it too when athiests brand everyone who has a spiritual path as stupid......and stupid, I am not. Please, let this site stay a place where we're all welcome, as this was the very reason I joined in the first place.

[woodsmoke]

Well said. It took me about two years to fully deconvert and finally figure out what I "believe." (word used liberally)

 

I don't give a flying rat's ass what a person believes or doesn't. It simply doesn't matter to me. I try to judge people based upon who they show themselves to be. Good, bad, geeky, trendy, fluent in binary or not; folks is folks.

 

I will admit to sometimes giving a hard time to Wiccans, though. Having just a passing familiarity with the religion's history and founder, I've been known to have difficulty taking it seriously. It doesn't help that the vast majority of self-claimed Wicca practitioners seem to be of the "fluffy" variety.

 

Then again, maybe I've just spent too much time at whywiccanssuck.com.

[whatifidontwantausername?]

LOL I agree that the "Fluffy Bunny" type probubly do it for attention because the fluffies that I talk to know very much about energyplay or anything about constructing spells. But that is a topic for another time, if they choose to take a fluffy bunny aproach to religion I don't care as long as they don't tell me that mine is wrong.

 

Gods I could rant and rant and rant about how annoying some people are but for the most part the Wiccans I know that have been pagan more than six months are serious about their religion and grow out of the fluffy bunny stage about the time they actualy run into someone who is... well very prejudiced about some religions.

 

Still, I am glad that I am not alone on here that those with religion should be accepted.

 

On that note I am also reminded of something else that I think is rather disturbing. That we label Christians on this website as such. I know it seems trivial and that I will catch hell for this but... It doesn't seem right to me. I know that most people who come to this site do so to get away from christians but I don't like that we light them up like the Fourth of July. Yes, they annoy, irritate, confuse and befuddle... but for the love of pie! I don't want someone highlighting my religious beliefs with a banner that says FLUFFY BUNNY!

 

I would like to know the logic behind the labels, because I cannot see any.

 

-Jake

[Brutal Brian]

Ok look, as far as the whole Pagans are Idiots or whatever it was thread, yeah that pissed me off pretty bad. I am an Atheist myself, but I know many Wiccans/Pagans and such, and I get pissed when people attack them as if it is still the 16th Century. What the hell? I don't see hardly any of the minor religions causing problems, but only Islam and Christianity for the most part, and even then its the Fundie fuckheads and Extremists of the beliefs, who fuck it up for the decent people who believe in whatever it is they believe in. So I agree with what you have said to some extent.

 

Having said that....

 

if anybody gets out of line here, the mods take care of it as best they can.

Or the asshole in question is ridiculed the hell away as bad as he flamed his fire in the first place and more than likely doesn't come back.

 

I also think that some people here are too easily offended and the minute someone gets confrontational they back off too easy. As a result we have lost too many members and friends.

 

A simple observation here is to do what I do, if you wish, it may help.

 

Just don't bother with an argument. Ignore it.

I have skipped over too many threads because I am of the opinion that if I read more than I actually did that I would be more aggravted than I usually am. That is the reason I mainly stay out of the Debating with Xtians forum. I just don't need to get that huffed up online. Its fine in real life, but not online. Hence my only occaisional appearance there and a smartass one at that. The other reason is that by the time I get to a thread there is already 10 pages of stuff to read through and I am barely online that long. I pick and choose my battles here, as I do in real life.

 

HOWEVER, if you really want to see me get in a huff, just wait until an unsuspecting fanatic comes here and lays into the old "Devil-Worshipping Heavy Metal " argument. You will see a side of me I have not yet revealed to you.

 

So that is my 2 cents for the moment. Direct all angry PM's and hatemail my way. I will deal with it and reply.

 

-Brutal Brian

[Thurisaz]

I didn't exactly like the "pagan-bashing" thread too, but then, I'm not forced to read it, am I? So I simply ignored that one... unless someone openly attacks me directly, I say "to each his own".

 

Plus, I think I can (partially) imagine that someone who really suffered badly from the jebus-cult madness just ha to develop a certain amount of scorn toward anything religious. It's not exactly nice, but I normally don't hold that against the (basically) cult victim

[euphgeek]

I agree with Thurisaz. Many times I read a thread and people will be talking like anyone who has any afterlife beliefs is crazy. But you just have to remind yourself that many of the people here were Fundamentalists or were affected by Fundamentalists. I think this is just their way of completely separating themselves from all aspects of the religion they found so distasteful, so they reject all aspects of it, even the good stuff. That's not to say that they're wrong for believing that, but I think that maybe they need to believe it. I try not to step on anyone's beliefs, and I have never tried to convince anyone that my beliefs are right.

 

I think people that still have a belief in a God/s or Goddess/es still have a place here, otherwise we may as well just be alt.atheism

[woodsmoke]

On that note I am also reminded of something else that I think is rather disturbing. That we label Christians on this website as such. I know it seems trivial and that I will catch hell for this but... It doesn't seem right to me. I know that most people who come to this site do so to get away from christians but I don't like that we light them up like the Fourth of July. Yes, they annoy, irritate, confuse and befuddle... but for the love of pie! I don't want someone highlighting my religious beliefs with a banner that says FLUFFY BUNNY!

 

I would like to know the logic behind the labels, because I cannot see any.

 

-Jake

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree, but having been here for a few of the what became rather-less-than-friendly debates centering around the topic, I can also understand the reasons behind them.

 

Think of it in the context of the site. Dave's a great enough guy to let anyone who's interested hang their hat in his house, but he created ExC primarily for folks who are pretty new to the whole deconversion thing. These are the people who need reassurance that they didn't make the wrong decision in leaving Chrisitanity, who need the tons of information available here to research the shortcomings and dark side of Christianity, who need the support offered by the others at the site, and who need nothing less than for some smug, self-righteous Christian to come along and tell them how wrong they are.

 

On the other hand, once folks have been around for a while and gotten the worst of the venom out of their systems, those labels can also serve as somewhat of an object lesson. Take TAP, BigToe and (formerly) Reach, for example. Most all of us here wouldn't hesitate to call out and beat down anyone who speaks ill of them because we know them to be damn good folks. The little icon beneath their avatar and title never factors into the equation.

 

Simply put, folks like Heimdall, Bruce, Reach, Fwee and all the others who have been around for years seem to be the exception in Dave's house rather than the rule. Most folks, once they've completed the deconversion process and gotten what help they needed from Dave's house, move on to other things in their lives. We're all welcome to stay as long as we like, but it's best to keep in mind the reason Dave left a light on and the door open in the first place was for folks who are in the same position now as we were when we first came here; half-dead/crazy from guilt, fear, anger, curiosity and whatever else plagues folks taking their first faltering steps away from religion, just looking for a place to sack for the night without being awoken by a sermon the next morning.

[Ouroboros]

whatifidontwantausername?,

 

First of all, we're so many different kinds of people with different beliefs on this site, and if one or two express some stupid ideas, that necessarely doesn't mean that you should remove yourself from the site. It's understandable that you get upset, but it doesn't mean everyone on the site agree with the other side.

 

Secondly, personally I'm all for all beliefs of any kinds, even the Christian, as long as people know and realize it's personal and not something that can be dogmatized and prosetylized to everyone else. I think that a majority of people have to have a belief/faith and can't live without it, while I'm one of the lucky (or unlucky) ones that just don't need one.

 

Thirdly, I agree that there is a lot of "all belief is bullshit" talk on the site, but it doesn't bother me, even if I don't completely agree. There's been many threads and topics that I didn't agree too, and in many of them I don't even go into a debate, since I know that I will be misunderstood anyway and nothing will come out of it. I choose my battles.

 

And finally, not all posts are about "hating all beliefs", but there are many other topics to discuss.

 

Actually I like the diversity, and wish there was more of it.

[Ouroboros]

WoodSmoke, you're making a good point. The reason of the site is primarely (but not only) for support of newly deconverted christians. And many of them feel angry, helpless, frustrated and want to bash anything that moves. Well, some of the oldies might fall into this activity too, now and then, including me. We have a lot of emotions and confusion that we try to make some sense of. And many times after a huge rant topic, people cool off, then go to the pub and have a beer together (figurately speaking).