Magnificent Myths And Noble Lies

[Legion]

In honor of Quid

 

One of the most disturbing things that I learned upon leaving Christianity was that there are people of relative stature, pastors, priests, and such, who do not believe. This strikes me as one of the most deceitful and manipulative things that someone could engage in. The idea that unbelievers would perpetuate religion and use it for their own ends does not sit well with me. But apparently the idea of the Noble Lie stretches back to at least Plato and his work The Republic.

 

Here is the wiki link to Noble Lie... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

 

My purpose here is to open a discussion about myths and/or lies and their role in society. To this end I am just going throw out some questions off the top of my head.

 

Is myth an indespensible part of a society's indentity? That is, can a society cohere without shared myth?

 

What distinguishes a myth from a lie?

 

Would you be willing to convey religious myths to people if you knew for certain that by doing so you could help them?

 

How skeptical should we be about those in positions of power and their professed religious beliefs?

 

Well that's the best I could do for the moment. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

[qec]

Here's a heavy hitter:

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5010.htm

[Galien]

There are no such things as Noble lies, only lies.

 

Society seems to need some shared something or other to stop them being afraid. Never worked for me.

 

Myths are lies. Human beings are pretty good at calling lies all sorts of things but a lie, but they are still lies.

 

I will not tell people lies for any reason, how does lying to another benfit them in the long run? I have more respect for people than that. Also I believe people need to face fear, not be lulled into a false sense of security by bullshit.

 

We should be TOTALLY sceptical of everyone in a position of power. You don't really think people take power for their love of humanity do you Legion?

 

Since the man who led me to christ and was a minister sexually assaulted me I have never trusted those in positions of power. Add to that fucking useless parents and all the politicians I serviced as a prostitute and well, why would I trust any of them? I would not trust 70% of people as far as I could throw them, and anyone in a position of power in a religious organisation fronts me and I automatically assume they are a **** who enjoys manipulating and abusing people. After all, you don't stay in those positions unless you are good at those things.

[grapeonthevine]

Is myth an indespensible part of a society's indentity? That is, can a society cohere without shared myth?

 

What distinguishes a myth from a lie?

 

Would you be willing to convey religious myths to people if you knew for certain that by doing so you could help them?

 

How skeptical should we be about those in positions of power and their professed religious beliefs?

 

Well that's the best I could do for the moment. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

 

 

 

I think society can cohere without a shared myth. Any post-christian nation is evidence of that. When I studied national epics/myths during undergrad we talked about how America didn't really have a national epic or formative myth. We have stuff about founding fathers, but most people who have more than a 10th grade education should know that is all bullshit. A myth is a story that can be used as a metaphor. A lie is simply something untrue, told in either knowledge of the truth or ignorance of it.

 

I don't think there is a need to convey religious myths to people. I think people need to take responsibility for themselves and their opinions and stop passing the buck.

 

Always be skeptical of people in positions of power. That includes economic power, not necessarily solely political . . . though they can often times go hand in hand in this post-democratic, post-capitalist country.

[oddbird1963]

Is myth an indefensible part of a society's identity? That is, can a society cohere without shared myth?

 

I would answer, "yes." The myths we share are the "Reader's Digest" condensed narratives that reveal a societies values and priories. The shared myths shift from decade to decade with the coming of age and the passing of subsequent generations. Unless you are a creationist, modern shared myths do not possess the explanatory power of how the cosmos came to be. But because of the way humans think in terms of symbols and easy narratives, myth will always be with us in some form or another.

 

What distinguishes a myth from a lie?

 

A lie possesses the elements of an intention to deceive and the perception of the liar being able to secure some profit or advantage over the one to whom the lie is being told. Myths usually start out being believed to be true. Only after time are they revealed to be non-historical in nature.

 

Of course there is a whole level of mythology that seems to be understood to be "untrue" but seem to be formative to the values of generations of people. For example, the Star Trek and the Star Trek Next Generation television series. These stories aren't true in the story that they tell. But they are "true" in the values they express and the questions they want us to ask about our desires for the future we want to build for ourselves. And the stories in those series have influenced society and industry.

 

These stories are untrue, but are not lies.

 

The only lies being told in relation to myths, I would say, is the lie of Intelligent Design or Scientific Creationism. The facts are so widely available, that there is no excuse to teach these myths as truths.

 

Would you be willing to convey religious myths to people if you knew for certain that by doing so you could help them?

I'm not sure, other than a bed time story, how telling a myth would help a person.

 

 

How skeptical should we be about those in positions of power and their professed religious beliefs?

We should be extremely skeptical. Our political leaders should base their recommendations and decisions on scientific fact and not try to establish their religion through the branches of govt.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I think the thing is now we have other forms of entertainment so we might say we don't have myths but what about things like Star Wars and Batman and the like? This is the form of the modern myth. Essentially everyone knows the characters, the basic story. Some more fervent fans know enough to debate the minutia of the details.

 

I don't think its generally something done with intent to deceive until someone decides that rather than a myth that its a real story. I think that the modern myth - sci fi and fantasy - tell truths about our time and connect us via the shared knowledge.

 

The problem with these religions is we are taking stories from thousands of years ago that spoke to other peoples in other times and trying to make them fit our current world. It just doesn't work that way. Having all the extra knowledge of the history of the planet and the human animal, the development of philosophy just puts us in a different mind set than the peoples the stories were originally written for and by.

 

I'd think the "noble lie" comes in when people take a story and think that the story can make people better if they believe it. The idea that some people need the fear of God in order to be decent human beings. In my experience this isn't true, but I suppose it could be for someone. I do not agree with the concept of using a lie to control people even if it does seem "better" for them or society. I do not think myths are meant to be used this way however.

 

In any case humanity is creative and I think mythology is a product of that. To take it literally and to turn it into a noble lie detracts from what it should be. Attaching the myths of other older cultures to modern life also negates their intention. You can see the writers of the NT do this with the mythology of the old.

[Galien]

I guess I just don't like being told untruths. I find a lot of the myths that rule society to be so much bullshit and to have very little real meaning or honesty when uncovered, if anyone even bothers looking. People are comfortable with myths and established mores, whehter they make sense or are even honest. If a myth has been started to maintain the position of an elite then I find that an intentional untruth used to keep the rabble in order.

[oddbird1963]

I guess I just don't like being told untruths. I find a lot of the myths that rule society to be so much bullshit and to have very little real meaning or honesty when uncovered, if anyone even bothers looking. People are comfortable with myths and established mores, whehter they make sense or are even honest. If a myth has been started to maintain the position of an elite then I find that an intentional untruth used to keep the rabble in order.

 

What you are describing, to me, is sort of a mythic struggle.

 

Do we proclaim that "the emperor has no clothes?" Then what about the personal grief and suffering that comes through being ostracized, persecuted, losing business opportunities because we are "freaks" who just won't get along with the way things are?

 

Or, do we keep quiet, bite our tongue, feel isolated in our perceptions yet possibly fair better because we don't rock the boat?

 

Many will fail when they try to buck the system and society. A precious few will succeed in decrying the unreality of our mythical moral and historical system. But many more are suppressed.

[Galien]

Do we proclaim that "the emperor has no clothes?" Then what about the personal grief and suffering that comes through being ostracized, persecuted, losing business opportunities because we are "freaks" who just won't get along with the way things are?

 

Or, do we keep quiet, bite our tongue, feel isolated in our perceptions yet possibly fair better because we don't rock the boat?

 

Is there actually even a choice? Maybe for most, but not for me. If I don't speak against it, then I condone it. And yes I have paid a high price with the grief, but I wouldn't change a thing. I have to be true to who I am, there are enough assholes in the world already, why should I just jump on the bandwagon so other people can feel "comfortable" with the lies our society tells us.

 

Look, I know I am an incurable idealist, but I also know I am not the only one. If people do not stand against what is wrong, then we all know what happens. The wrong prevails and people become so apathetic they let shit happen, and the next generation can't even identify wrong as wrong. And all for the cause of a bit of uncomfortable personal grief. Man up people, fuck, or don't complain when those who do have power fuck us over, again and again and again.

 

Think of the difference it could have made to the world if someone had stood up to hitler when they should have.

 

I find it shameful that fitting in is more important than dealing with the truth.

[J.W.]

In honor of Quid

 

One of the most disturbing things that I learned upon leaving Christianity was that there are people of relative stature, pastors, priests, and such, who do not believe. This strikes me as one of the most deceitful and manipulative things that someone could engage in. The idea that unbelievers would perpetuate religion and use it for their own ends does not sit well with me. But apparently the idea of the Noble Lie stretches back to at least Plato and his work The Republic.

 

Here is the wiki link to Noble Lie... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

 

My purpose here is to open a discussion about myths and/or lies and their role in society. To this end I am just going throw out some questions off the top of my head.

 

Is myth an indespensible part of a society's indentity? That is, can a society cohere without shared myth?

 

What distinguishes a myth from a lie?

 

Would you be willing to convey religious myths to people if you knew for certain that by doing so you could help them?

 

How skeptical should we be about those in positions of power and their professed religious beliefs?

 

Well that's the best I could do for the moment. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

 

 

Does that make Tony Robins bad?

[Galien]

Does that make Tony Robins bad?

 

Bad? No idea. He just remains the same fuckwit money making machine that feeds off the greed and weakness of others that he has always been.

[DesertBob]

Is myth an indespensible part of a society's indentity? That is, can a society cohere without shared myth?

No. The US doesn't really have a shared mythology in the sense that other peoples do. Britain didn't until JRR Tolkein, envious of the German Ring Cycle, sought to provide the British people with one via his Lord of the Rings trilogy, although, I'm not sure that really qualifies as a myth (see my definition below).

What distinguishes a myth from a lie?

Tolkien suggested that portentious human events pass over time into legend and then to myth -- in other words they are actual events that eventually people forget and/or quit taking literally, to their detriment. I would suggest the opposite.

 

My model is the Greek mythology, which is a consistent and cohesive enough list of psychological archetypes that it's often used to this day by Jungians and others to illustrate universal aspects of the human condition and human motivations. I suspect that the Greek mythology was a way to codify accumulated wisdom on such subjects but in an esoteric way -- such that the intellectual elite would study it at one level and the common man would absorb it at a more primitive level, entirely too literally. Perhaps it starts out as a form of "noble lie" -- more like a "noble deception" really. It was a way to get certain concepts out to the general populace by stealth -- a cynical view of the superstitious rabble by our standards, but perhaps human society was quite different back in the day, due to a relatively uneven distribution of wealth and education and less time to evolve away from more primitive animistic / pantheistic religions toward the more abstract monotheism of the present. Yes, for all its ills I see monotheism as progress, as a transition towards a predominant agnostic / areligious society that I feel is bound to emerge.

Would you be willing to convey religious myths to people if you knew for certain that by doing so you could help them?

I'd like to think we've moved beyond this, I'd rather persuade people with essays or books.

How skeptical should we be about those in positions of power and their professed religious beliefs?

Very. While some are sincere, I suspect that most profess religious beliefs only for show. To get to a place of national power requires (and shapes) a certain personality which I don't think can possibly be reconciled with religious sensibilities. I suppose that's cynical of me, but I've come to the conclusion that most politicians are whores. With few if any exceptions, they don't kiss babies because they love little children, and they don't embrace religion because they believe it or practice it. Beyond a certain point all they believe in is power.