Sin of disobediance

[All Gods Fail]

Browsing thru the bible, I came across this:

 

1 Timothy 2

 

2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour

 

and this:

 

Romans 13

1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

These passages seem to be pretty cut & dried - respect, honor and obey those who are in authority because they've been put there by God to keep the peace. But Clinton got nothing but attacks, insults, dishonor and disrespect from most evangelical xers. Are these xers now condemned because they 'therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation'?

 

After all, God appointed Clinton just as he appointed Bush, Nixon, FDR and Teddy Roosevelt. Shouldn't xers have been a lot more respectful to Clinton?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Browsing thru the bible, I came across this:

and this:

These passages seem to be pretty cut & dried - respect, honor and obey those who are in authority because they've been put there by God to keep the peace. But Clinton got nothing but attacks, insults, dishonor and disrespect from most evangelical xers. Are these xers now condemned because they 'therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation'?

 

After all, God appointed Clinton just as he appointed Bush, Nixon, FDR and Teddy Roosevelt. Shouldn't xers have been a lot more respectful to Clinton?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Clinton isn't the President anymore -- unless this is getting us ready for Hillary in 2008.

 

 

Seriously though -- yes, alot of people (including myself) went WAY over the line in regard to Clinton. In a democracy I think we've the right (and duty) to oppose in a legal way, and with respect, our government officals but there is no doubt that much of the critcism was actually sin.

 

I'd of liked to have seen a sermon on homosexuality dropped from the schedule in favor of a sermon on treating government officials with respect back in 1996. Too bad that opportunity for teaching has been missed.

 

If Hillary does win in 2008 I'm gonna focus on praying for her and holding my tongue.

 

Good post.

[Nicole Simon]

Yeah, I agree, All (other) Gods Fail Clinton was treated abysmally, and the truth is, I found him to be rather charming and likable in that kind of 'down home' style that Americans tend to fancy. Hey, they even liked him out here, in LA, and in a really big way, and we tend not to like anything or anyone too provincial.

 

My only gripe with him was on the Lewinsky deal, and all the explaining I had to do with my daughter (under 10) at the time. But really, I was more ticked off at the press. With prior administrations, say, Kennedy and Ike and others, they had the decency to allow these 'boys' some privacy with their carrying on. You know what they say about boys, how they will be ...

[LloydDobler]

a sermon on treating government officials with respect back in 1996.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Or how about a sermon on how the bible isn't correct on matters such as these.

 

No reason to respect authority that does not deserve it. But then again, we're talking about the god of the bible, so I guess you guys are used to it.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Or how about a sermon on how the bible isn't correct on matters such as these.

 

No reason to respect authority that does not deserve it.  But then again, we're talking about the god of the bible, so I guess you guys are used to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I disagree with Clinton, which is fine.

 

However, the gossip and slander that I involved myself with didn't hurt him, it hurt me.

 

I think that is the nature of the commandment -- the good kind of disagreement is good for everyone -- the evil kind of disagreement is harmful to everyone.

[All Gods Fail]

I disagree with Clinton, which is fine.

 

However, the gossip and slander that I involved myself with didn't hurt him, it hurt me.

 

I think that is the nature of the commandment -- the good kind of disagreement is good for everyone -- the evil kind of disagreement is harmful to everyone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, but the bible is pretty specific:

 

"1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

 

Wouldn't most American evangelicals have violated this directive? I remember the shit they said about Clinton, and even now he's a favorite boogeyman/whipping boy to trot out for the religious right.

 

Quote Pat Robertson:

"For nearly nine months, we have seen one man wreak havoc on our most noble office.  For nine months, we have been mocked, demeaned, belittled and lied to. We have been forced, ourselves and our children, to endure an account so lurid that if it were made into a movie it would have been triple X-rated."

 

Not to mention Falwell's little hatchet job, The Clinton Chronicles: An Investigation into the Alleged Criminal Activities of Bill Clinton. And the xers don't seem to want to let go, either.

 

Again, the bible seems to be pretty clear on this: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

 

ccording to the bible, god ordained Clinton for 8 years, yet most (if not all) of the religious neo-cons did nothing but try to oppose him at every turn, on every issue, and not only tried to orchestrate his impeachment but told vicious, unsubstantiated lies about him.

 

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

 

I know who's going to hell, I know who's going to hell!

[Mad_Gerbil]

Um... I agreed with you.

[Amanda]

Hi All Gods Fail! Great post, with lots of different aspects.

 

I actually liked Clinton, both terms. So are you saying I should like and obey Bush now?

[All Gods Fail]

Hi All Gods Fail! Great post, with lots of different aspects.

 

I actually liked Clinton, both terms. So are you saying I should like and obey Bush now?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, you kind of have to in order to follow the bible.

 

Personally, I would declare myself agnostic and go to town on that peanut-head Bush and his cronies.

 

Anyway, my larger point was that all the fundies and evangelicals who opposed Clinton in the name of god and religion were doing the devil's work. You definitely don't sound like a fundie if you liked Clinton!

[All Gods Fail]

Um... I agreed with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry dude - I didn't quite understand your post.

 

Still, I wonder...the bible doesn't seem to really differentiate the way you do. It's pretty much, 'obey and respect the ruler, whom god has ordained or else'.

[Casey]

But Clinton got nothing but attacks, insults, dishonor and disrespect from most evangelical xers.

 

We-ell, yes he did, but then there is a saying in politics, "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", is there not? At least there is in my country, and our own Little Monkey (aka John Winston Howard) draws a fair bit of fire himself, both from the Loyal Opposition and the disgruntled public. The way our fuel prices are now, I'd not be surprised if half the public wanted him boiled in oil, and the other half would settle for kerosene.

 

Seriously though, what was the nature of the resistance to Clinton? America isn't ruled by the Divine Right Of Kings so far as I am aware; it is a democracy and to that end, if any member of the public thinks that he or she could make a better fist of the President's job, they are entitled to state their case by whatever lawful means they have at their disposal.

 

If these include satirical cartooning, vehement oratory or cat-calls of disrespect at public events, so be it. There is a line however, and that line is crossed when methods such as inciting riots, advocating an armed uprising, or laying a vehicle ambush with assassination in mind, are used. If such methods are indeed used, then the full weight of authority should fall on those who use them. I don't think one really needs a bible to explain that, does one?

 

It comes down to this; either you live in a country that pays some heed to the Rule Of Law (however scanty you may think that heed to be at times) or you merely exist under whatever armed gang can muster enough thugs and goons to firstly seize power, then to keep it.

 

Having said that, circumstances do alter cases. If enough of the country's citizenry feel that a Government ought to go, that Government should go. If it should happen that this is not possible through the ballot box, resort must be had to other means. That was the case with the American Revolution, as was admirably stated in the Declaration of Independence.

 

Yet your Founding Fathers would, I am sure, have been just as aware of the passages you have quoted Sir, as anyone else, and I dare say they would have approved of them for the same reason I gave. They would also have known of a saying oft-quoted by the military in European countries, to wit, if you draw your sword against the Prince, throw away the scabbard! However they and America had been backed into a corner and there was nothing else for it but Revolution, so Revolution there was.

 

As it was then, so it is now; that is one reason out of many why the American people were given the Second Amendment. If it ever should happen that America's imcumbent Government has dissolved into tyranny, and all lawful means of removing it have been exhausted, then there is a natural law that comes into the picture, let the bible say what it may. That law simply states, "It is better to die fighting than to live on your knees". I sincerely hope it never comes to that, but if it does ...

Casey

[Mad_Gerbil]

Sorry dude - I didn't quite understand your post.

 

Still, I wonder...the bible doesn't seem to really differentiate the way you do. It's pretty much, 'obey and respect the ruler, whom god has ordained or else'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Part of being a good participant in our system is taking upon yourself the right to vote, peacefully protest, and lobby -- that hasn't been so in other systems. I'll agree it is a fine line -- and that many people have crossed it entirely.

[trashy]

Browsing thru the bible, I came across this:

and this:

These passages seem to be pretty cut & dried - respect, honor and obey those who are in authority because they've been put there by God to keep the peace. But Clinton got nothing but attacks, insults, dishonor and disrespect from most evangelical xers. Are these xers now condemned because they 'therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation'?

 

After all, God appointed Clinton just as he appointed Bush, Nixon, FDR and Teddy Roosevelt. Shouldn't xers have been a lot more respectful to Clinton?

Casey made a good point - these passages were written when Israel was under Roman rule and had no vote on their leaders. That doesn't really apply to a democracy. One of those situations where the context and the audience have a large impact on the interpretation.

[All Gods Fail]

Casey made a good point - these passages were written when Israel was under Roman rule and had no vote on their leaders.  That doesn't really apply to a democracy.  One of those situations where the context and the audience have a large impact on the interpretation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True, but my larger point is that if you believe, you're obligated not to alter the bible to suit the changing times. Obedience to appointed authority is obedience to appointed authority, democracy or no. If you don't respect the president, you're dissing god's official authority.

 

And anyway, democracy is based on Greek/Roman principles and the Enlightenment, not the bible which advocated kings and slavery. Should a believer even participate in political debate? Is it 'worldly'?

[Amanda]

Should a believer even participate in political debate? Is it 'worldly'?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All Gods Fail... nice try!

[Mad_Gerbil]

Should a believer even participate in political debate? Is it 'worldly'?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well every President I've ever been under has commanded me to participate in the democratic process....

 

I'm just submitting to the rulers put over me.

 

[Guest Heavenly Deceit]

Doesn't that also mean God appointed Hitler?

[Mythra]

Yeah, well, we all know why those verses made it into the final cut.

 

Same reason Pilate washes his hands.

 

On the other hand, without those verses, we would have never heard of Jesus.

 

Hail Caeser.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Doesn't that also mean God appointed Hitler?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe at the time those verses were written that people just as cruel as Hilter were in charge. Hitler, Nero ... they are the same sort of maniac.

[Casey]

I believe at the time those verses were written that people just as cruel as Hilter were in charge.  Hitler, Nero ... they are the same sort of maniac.

 

MG and others, it was the German people who elected Hitler, as he never ceased to boast from that day until the day he shot himself. But if you had asked several of the German Generals why they did not join in the plots to do away with him even when it was proved that he was to say the least, criminally insane, their answer would have been to quote those verses cited by All Gods Fail.

 

After that, the rest of their answer would have depended on whether they were catholics or lutherans. The former would say they had sworn a personal oath of loyalty to the fellow and they could not break it; the latter would have quoted Luther as saying that even if they knew their ruler was mad, gawd would prefer them to let matters stand rather than take the law into their own hands.

 

By the way, if anyone is interested, this is the oath catholics and lutherans alike swore in those times: (I have quoted it in the original and as translated into English)

 

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."

 

(""I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath.")

 

That is rather in contrast to the American Founding Fathers' views upon a similar subject, isn't it?

Casey