Time as an illusion

[Dianka]

TIME IS AN ILLUSION!

 

People say this a lot, and really, it makes little sense to me. Now, I can be like 99.9% of people who nod and believe this statement, but if I were asked why time is an illusion, I would not be able to answer the question.

 

The way I see it, time, like every other form of measurement, is not an illusion because, whether or not we aknowledge the existence of this form of measurement, seconds melt away. The sun rises and sets. If we believe that one sunrise to the next is one day, then how can we argue that time is an illusion.

 

This is all I will say about time right now. I want people who understand and agree with the time = illusion belief to explain it to me.

 

[woodsmoke]

Really wish I could tell you, but I'm not sure I understand the subject myself.

 

I suppose it's possible the concept of time is an illusion, but that's entering a philosophical minefield I don't have the detector for.

[Ouroboros]

Sure we can measure time, but it's done with a system that is dependent on other physical factors.

 

If you make a watch to measure seconds, and you travel with the watch, and you speed up to close to the speed of light. Your time that you see on the watch seems to be normal, while we can watch you and see that you move extremely slow. For us it takes years what for you takes one second. This happens because you and the watch is slowing down, in relation to us. That's the physical side of time, and measuring.

 

On the other hand, you percieve time without a watch. Your brain registers cause-and-effect situations around you. You type on the keyboard, and each keystroke is part of the sequence of events that you register. If your brain was faster, and you type faster, you wouldn't see that time any different that if your brain was slower and you typed slower. Only an observer with a stopwatch next to you could measure the difference.

 

Yet another interesting thing with your brain is that you percieve events in a delayed state. Your consciousness doesn't react and record events exactly when they happen, but you have a delayed awareness of time. It's within about 0.25-0.5 seconds (IIRC). So from the event that you see happens, until you notice that it happened, there's some time that has lapsed.

 

So time is not an indiviseble constant to you, but in a sense an "illusion".

 

Some people are born with a disability that causes them to not understand the concept of time. They can't make a distinction between before, now and later. So does time exist for them. Not really. But of course you have time existing outside them and around time, but this time is depending on what I said at the top, speed, gravity etc.

 

**edit**

if my post is too incoherent, it's because it's late and i'm sleepy. At least the time illusion says it late!

[nightflight]

It has to do with "thought". Time is a human invention; useful, yet it can also be an unhealthy obsession. We live mostly in the past or future......thinking ahead and reflecting back. Read some of the works of Krishnamurti; he explains it much better than I could.

[Fweethawt]

It has to do with "thought".  Time is a human invention; useful,

 

Exactly. Time doesn't exist outside of thought and therefore it's illusive since it only exists as a method of measurement in the mind.

 

No mind, no time.

 

It's an artificial construct/concept.

[narcissist]

"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so." Douglas Adams.

 

My 2 cents...

 

Imagine if time were an illusion. You go to work, you do your eight hours for the day, at the end of your eight hour illusion you make ready leave work for the day. As you do so your boss asks, "Where are you going?"

To which you respond "I've finished work for the day."

Your boss responds "But you've only been here for an hour!"

He responds in this way because his illusion of time is different from yours.

 

If time is an illusion, aren't we lucky we can measure it objectively.

[Eccles1:2]

I think I'd go a lot further and say that practically everything as perceived by us is an illusion. We used to perceive the world as a fixed, flat thing at the centre of the universe. Obviously, it never was, but everybody who knew anything believed it to be so. Our knowledge of the universe expanded, and the previous reality became no more than an outdated hypothesis. Similarly with a Newtonian view of gravity; everybody believed that was the end of the story until that pesky quantum theory started showing its face (and not showing it at the same time). I'm pretty sure that further discoveries and hypotheses will continue to give a more complete view of reality, whatever that is, and our commonly-held scientific views of today will seem quaint and credulous. Which is pretty much what I'd say about most religious views too...

[Dianka]

HanSolo: I get where you are going with the idea behind the statement. Using the speed of light example, I want to ask a few questions. It seems to me that there are a few variables in this example: speed, distance, and level of productivity. The only constant in this example is time. You can either be a poor loser trudging along at a human pace, or you can be the cocky bastard that is moving at a speed that is so fast it seems to the human eye that you are moving very slowly. Without the constant of time, there would be no way compare the two people’s distance, productivity, and speed. I suppose this gets to the real part that confuses me: time (to me) is a division of one day. Time helps us understand the world, and it uncovers truths about existence. Even though the concept of seconds, minutes, and hours was created by man, nature has it’s own version of time (the position of the sun over the earth). My next question is: if time helps us organize our existence in a more meaningful manner, can it be considered an illusion?

 

Nightflight: Do you happen to have an online reference for Krishnamurti’s vision of time? I was unable to find one.

 

Fweethawt: If we take the example of a person who is unable to comprehend what time means, time still goes on. In this example, is time (not the definition, but the progression of) outside of the body?

 

Also, no mind no ipod, but I think we will all agree that if there is a division between real and unreal, the ipod would be in the real category (even though it is created by man).

[quicksand]

Exactly. Time doesn't exist outside of thought and therefore it's illusive since it only exists as a method of measurement in the mind.

 

No mind, no time.

 

It's an artificial construct/concept.

Caveat... drunken rant approaches...

 

Sorta.... Things do happen and time is a matter of scale. Our highly regimented metric has taken literally the whole of human existance to establish. So, in one case, time is an illusion..

 

does the human-time mean anything to the "life-cycle" of a star vs. that of a human?

 

 

Nah..

 

 

Wait I gotta fill my glass up (damn glass-time)....

 

Anyway, no time is not an illusion.

[Dianka]

Quicksand, I hope you live a few time zones away from Chicago because, uuuh..... it is almost 5PM, and you are re-filling (who knows how many times) your drink. You animal!

 

Anyway, I agree with your post.....essentially, there are examples when time seems to be an illusion. But, when viewed as a tool used to understand the laws of nature, time is very real.

 

I think I need a drink....

[Ouroboros]

HanSolo: I get where you are going with the idea behind the statement. Using the speed of light example, I want to ask a few questions. It seems to me that there are a few variables in this example: speed, distance, and level of productivity. The only constant in this example is time. You can either be a poor loser trudging along at a human pace, or you can be the cocky bastard that is moving at a speed that is so fast it seems to the human eye that you are moving very slowly. Without the constant of time, there would be no way compare the two people’s distance, productivity, and speed. I suppose this gets to the real part that confuses me: time (to me) is a division of one day. Time helps us understand the world, and it uncovers truths about existence. Even though the concept of seconds, minutes, and hours was created by man, nature has it’s own version of time (the position of the sun over the earth). My next question is: if time helps us organize our existence in a more meaningful manner, can it be considered an illusion?

I don't see time as an illusion in the sense that it doesn't exist at all. But the measurement of time is relative and arbitrary. You take the sun-up-down as a measurement, which would not work if you live on the moon. You'll have a different day-rythm there. Or Mars, or another planet around a binary system. So how we measure time and how we are conscious about time is subjective and man-made.

 

They day is not exactly 24 hours for instance. Yet we have established a time measurement with an atomic clock that's down to billionth of a fraction of a second. But if you place two of this clock in two different airplanes and let them fly in opposite directions, one with Earths rotation, and the other against it, the clocks will drift and not show the same time. I think they drift about 0.5 second each, so the difference will be 1 second. Not even the atomic clock can show us the True™ Time.

 

Also, no mind no ipod, but I think we will all agree that if there is a division between real and unreal, the ipod would be in the real category (even though it is created by man).

Yes. and? The real exist, because we can experience it. Time exists, but it's not absolute. It's only absolute within the framework you place/test it in.

[Ouroboros]

Oh, another interesting thing I read once. When your heart beats faster (racing from exercise or being scared), you perceieve time different. I think it was that your brain is on highspeed, so time around you seems to be standing still. I have to find the reference to be sure what I'm saying is right. But I'm at work and the book is at home. Complement this later.

[quicksand]

Quicksand, I hope you live a few time zones away from Chicago because, uuuh..... it is almost 5PM, and you are re-filling (who knows how many times) your drink. You animal! 

 

Anyway, I agree with your post.....essentially, there are examples when time seems to be an illusion. But, when viewed as a tool used to understand the laws of nature, time is very real.

 

I think I need a drink....

Hello SM!

 

I used to live in Chicago actually. Wrigleyville and then later Lincoln Square. I love Chicago... but I didnt start pooring some drinks til later, that is until I got home from work ( I ducked out... I quit last friday! Wooo hoooo!!!) I live back in Milwaukee now.

 

Time is really not illusion. Damn, it took time to write this! he he.

[Dianka]

HanSolo

If we lived on the moon there could be another celestial landmark that we can anchor time to. What that landmark is, I have no idea, but I believe that a different division of time could exist on any mass of dimpled garbage in the sky.

 

Another point I wanted to make is that the atomic clock is man-made, and the simple fact that we have to adjust the “time” on the atomic to clearly represent the time of the universe, means that we have a natural standard to live up to. (By that way, this year another “leap-second” was added to the atomic clock to make up for the inability of the clock to keep up with real time).

 

Although I almost have my mind made up on the opinion of whether time is real, you spring this whole circling the globe in different directions and reporting a discrepancy of one second. What are some (highly abbreviated and simplified) theories on why this happens?

 

Please, speak nerdy to me….

[Dianka]

QuickSand:

That's so funny! I used to live in Kenosha and I just moved back to Chicago. I just visited the Safehouse two weeks ago (very cool bar).

[Ouroboros]

Another point I wanted to make is that the atomic clock is man-made, and the simple fact that we have to adjust the “time” on the atomic to clearly represent the time of the universe, means that we have a natural standard to live up to. (By that way, this year another “leap-second” was added to the atomic clock to make up for the inability of the clock to keep up with real time).

The atomic clock is based on basic physical atomic events. The only man-made is the mechanics around it. I'll get more info for you later.

 

There is no "real" time in the universe, except the speed of light in absolute vacuum. It's speed is constant. But the speed of light in air, water, glass is different. All time is relative.

 

Your "real" time is affected by speed and gravity. Time goes into a singularity in a black hole. It becomes close to infinite. One second in a black hole, is a lifetime of the universe.

 

Although I almost have my mind made up on the opinion of whether time is real, you spring this whole circling the globe in different directions and reporting a discrepancy of one second. What are some (highly abbreviated and simplified) theories on why this happens?

Einsteins special and general relativity theory. I'll see if I can explain it in an easy way later, or if I find a good site to direct you to.

 

Please, speak nerdy to me….

"Nerdy, nerdy"... so... that better?...

[Fweethawt]

Caveat... drunken rant approaches...

 

Sorta.... Things do happen and time is a matter of scale. Our highly regimented metric has taken literally the whole of human existance to establish. So, in one case, time is an illusion..

 

does the human-time mean anything to the "life-cycle" of a star vs. that of a human?

Nah..

Wait I gotta fill my glass up (damn glass-time)....

 

Anyway, no time is not an illusion.

 

Oh boy, the drunken Quicky strikes again.

 

 

What I was saying is, time is a method of measurement that takes place in the mind. Clocks and watches are just things that we built to help us keep a more "accurate" measurement of it. So we wouldn't loose track of it. So that it wouldn't slip through our fingers.... just like an illusion.

 

So, regardless of the life-cycle of a star or human, reality, the Universe, just keeps on being regardless of whether or not the star and human live at all. Reality is oblivious and quite indifferent to a concept of time.

 

And that, dear drunken Quicky, is because time is an artificial constuct that exist only in the minds of those who are able to contemplate such a thing.

[Dianka]

Fweethawt:

 

Could you please expand on this statement:

Reality is oblivious and quite indifferent to a concept of time.

 

Our reality is strained by time. There is not enough time in a day, time is not on our side, etc.

 

It seems to me that oblivious and indifferent are not attitudes that we take in regard to time.

[Fweethawt]

Fweethawt:

 

Could you please expand on this statement:

Reality is oblivious and quite indifferent to a concept of time.

 

Our reality is strained by time. There is not enough time in a day, time is not on our side, etc.

 

It seems to me that oblivious and indifferent are not attitudes that we take in regard to time.

 

I we weren't here, if we had never evolved into what we are today, that being, thinking, creative, learning beings, the concept of time would never be.

 

Seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, etc. are all units of measurement created within the mind. Eventually, we created clocks, watches, and calendars to help us keep track of this measurement that we call time.

 

If it weren't for us, this concept, this measurement called time just simply wouldn't be at all. And this planet, along with the Universe, would exist just the same without the idea of "time" ever being considered at all.

[Fweethawt]

Actually, without that component, energy could not transform into matter. E=MC2 (Energy equals Mass times the speed of light squared). Without time there is nothing.

 

Time is essential and most likely valid beyond our universe. The processes required to trigger the singularity responsible for the big bang were subject to time. As soon as you talk 'process' you need time.... unless you believe in miracles. 

 

One can see, feel, use, and prove the existence of energy.

One can see, feel, use, and prove the existence of matter.

Can one do the same with time?

 

Time is simply a concept or method of measurement that resides in the mind.

[Dianka]

Thank you, meat popsicle....uh, I mean REBOOT. I will add you comment to the list of reasons why I am confused on this matter (partly kidding).

 

However, it occurred to me that the "time" that you are talking about is different than the time I am talking about. The time that you refer to is synonymous with multiplication. As a part of math, multiplication is one of the few things that we can hold on to as the absolute truth. So, I completely agree that without math there is nothing.

 

I am still confused about time as the literal passing of seconds.

[Fweethawt]

I am still confused about time as the literal passing of seconds.

 

Why? Seconds are only units of measurement that "tick" by on a clock or a watch. Other than that, they only "exist" in the mind as a method of measuring the "distance" between point 'A' and point 'B' in reality.

 

Sure, we might say, "It took us two hours, forty-five minutes, and three seconds to watch that movie." But all we're doing is giving a measurement. We still don't have anything to show for it.

 

[Fweethawt]

There are many approaches to dealing with time yours is called presentist.

The presentist viewpoint maintains that the past and the future are not real, and that only the present is real. Advocates of a growing past argue that, in addition, the past is real.  Reality "grows" with the coming into being of determinate reality from an indeterminate or potential reality.  "The world grows by accretion of facts," says Richard Jeffrey.  Aristotle and C. D. Broad also advocate a "growing past."  Duns Scotus and A. N. Prior are presentists.

 

I know that the past was real.

I know that the present is real.

I know that the future will be real.

 

I do not fit into the presentist definition.

 

 

I don't know how to make myself clear on this.

 

You maintain that it takes something called "time" in order for a series of events to take place. I maintain that when a series of events take place, they take place within a progression of reality. We have learned to measure this progression by inventing, or conceptualizing what we have come to call time. Time is what we use to measure this progression.

 

 

 

[Fweethawt]

When you watch a movie the image is refreshed 24 times per second (FPS) to give you the illusion of movement.

There are times when I'm watching a movie and my cat will walk into the living-room, sit down right in front of the television, and watch the movie too. This cat, who is completely oblivious to the "concept" of time, still seems to derive some sort of enjoyment from this movie illusion of movement.

 

Time defines our reality. It allows electrons to rotate around a nucleus and allows the decay of uranium

Really? You're starting to sound like Ben Kenobi here, Reeby.

 

. You could view it as a flowing river if you want.

Now you're starting to sound like Deepak Chopra.

 

It has been at the center of human philosophy for at least 2500 years... It is really a very complex subject matter and some scientists are developing theories .... worm holes, time travel, travelling beyond the speed of light... etc around it.

Almost sounds like a religion to me. You know... that other illusion.

 

 

[Fweethawt]

Absolutely... we're saying the same thing.

Almost, but not quite.

 

Events don't take place if there is no time. A space/time framework is required for anything to happen... anywhere.

And what does the "framework" consist of? Oh! Waitaminute! You've already answered this question . See below.

 

The units of measure we use on this planet are based on its rotation:

1 day = 1 earth rotation

1 hour = 1 earth rotation / 24

1 year = number of eartly rotations it takes to go from one summer to another... actually if the earth wasn't tilted off its axis there would be no seasons and we'd have a real hard time figuring how long it takes the earth to circle around the sun    Every four years we need to tweak the calendar a bit with a leap year since it really takes 365.25636 days

.... etc....

You've given measurements. Measurements that began where? In the human mind. We have learned to use these measurements as progression markers for our reality.

 

Everything that you mentioned would still "be", whether or not we were here to "measure" them with our "concept" of "time".

 

So, in light of this, how can one say that time is a necessity of reality?