Different Witches

[lunaticheathen]

I've started to get some work (finally) in a local occult shop with a great lady who I made instant friends with when I moved down here. She's certainly an interesting person, and I've talked magic and spells with her, and certain ideas and local happenings and people, but she hadn't really revealed much about her personal beliefs. Which is fine, I never felt it necessary for anyone to spell (haha, pun) out beliefs for me to like or understand them as people.

But just yesterday, as I was stringing a witches' ladder for later charming and sale, a couple of guys came in looking for someone to be in a documentary on occult and voodoo in New Orleans. The owner starts talking with them about other contacts for voodoo, because it seemed like that's what they were more interested in, and she's a talker when she gets going, so the conversation goes on for a while. It moves over to the part of the store where I'm beading, and I catch something that doesn't exactly surprise me, but made me stop and think.

This is a confirmed witch. I know this from what she knows, has told me, the altar in the back room. But she said she was Catholic. Not really unusual for New Orleans, but I have always wondered about the whole "Christian Witch" thing. It's very counter-intuitive, but it kind of makes sense. I've heard her talk about God, which I took in a over-arching power sense, even if it made me flinch a little, but last week, she also said "Thank you, Jesus!" about something. I chalked it up to being raised in Southern Louisiana, maybe an automatic phrase, but it was still odd to me.

But now, she was talking to these guys about how the mind is the "Lucifer aspect" of a person, and the heart is the "Christ aspect", and the need for balance. Ok, so she's not a dogmatic hellfire christian by any stretch, but I am perplexed by the identification with being "Catholic", but running a very successful and eclectic occult store.

We have talked about being eclectic in spirituality, and how there's nothing wrong with using what works for you, so maybe it's that. Maybe she loves her past in a way I just don't. Also, Baptists are VERY different from Catholics. Maybe it's just New Orleans.

I'm wondering how to bring this up with her without seeming like I'm being critical, because I really like her, she's very kind and generous, hell, she's giving me a(n off the books) job when things are scary economically. I'm also just plain curious about how the whole "Christian Witch" thing works. I've met a handful over the years, but none of them seemed a- very committed to the witch part, or b- very smart. This is a smart, committed woman.

I'll update if I get a chance to ask her about it, I'll probably broach it from the whole "I was raised around christians like -this-, what's so different that you stuck with the label of Catholic?"

Maybe?

[Jedah]

Maximum levels of SPAG

[Vendredie]

It could very well be one of those eclectic faiths/practices, or this lady could very well be a fully grown Christopagan.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

From my understanding Catholicism is the most compatible with paganism because of the rituals and saints etc. I know there is stregoneria which is Italian folk magic mixed with Catholicism and I think there are forms of voodoo that use Catholic saints or prayers.

 

I'd think she is probably a Catholic in that she finds the mytholog,y rituals and perhaps services to be powerful but owning an occult store she is probably at least universalistic or has other heretical understandings of salvation/ sin. Magic and rituals in themselves are not necessarily in conflict with some form of Christianity. And Catholicism is the most polytheistic/ pagan sect of it.

 

I had a friend who was a "Christian Wiccan" for a while but she really didn't think about what she believed or why she just wanted to be different or something. I'd classify her as a flake. Your boss sounds pretty cool though. I'd like to work in an occult shop someday.

[Vendredie]

From my understanding Catholicism is the most compatible with paganism because of the rituals and saints etc. I know there is stregoneria which is Italian folk magic mixed with Catholicism and I think there are forms of voodoo that use Catholic saints or prayers.

 

I'd think she is probably a Catholic in that she finds the mytholog,y rituals and perhaps services to be powerful but owning an occult store she is probably at least universalistic or has other heretical understandings of salvation/ sin. Magic and rituals in themselves are not necessarily in conflict with some form of Christianity. And Catholicism is the most polytheistic/ pagan sect of it.

 

I had a friend who was a "Christian Wiccan" for a while but she really didn't think about what she believed or why she just wanted to be different or something. I'd classify her as a flake. Your boss sounds pretty cool though. I'd like to work in an occult shop someday.

Possibly this. It doesn't particularly surprise me. At the same time, I'm a little wary because I run into "Christopagans" on the internet all the time and they normally try to incorporate Wicca with Protestant Christianity... which makes very little sense. Most of them grow out of it.

[lunaticheathen]

This woman is most definitely not a flake. She's very smart, has seriously practiced for a long time, and embraces the practice of witchcraft. Even doesn't shy away from Goddess worship, but openly associates Oshun with the Blessed Virgin, for example.

I think this is a phenomenon of New Orleans, being legally Catholic, and everyone just doing what they do since the founding. Vodou definitely doesn't hesitate to associate lwa with saints.

It's just something I'm learning, and I think it's helping me grow, accusations of "SPAG" aside (like there's something wrong with it, really?). I grew up in a heavily evangelistic Protestant atmosphere, so my first reaction to mixing christianity and pagan faiths is "that's not right!" even if it's academically right, and the archeotypes line up.

[Adelice]

It doesnt sound that strange to me , since christians are the ones that are more closed minded if we could say , in mexico that kind of stuff is pretty normal , the catholic saints got blended with witchcraft , spells , and voodoo , most of the saints are used into that kind of stuff so catholics actually have an more " magical " aspect. Apart from that , i wouldnt be able to answer i guess. Is normal here to see the virgin mary along with jesus images and then some other things has voodoo , love spells , etc etc in the same room.

 

( By the way the use of saints is just related to make more " effective " the spell , or protect it from harm , for example some use " images " of the saints , make the spell , then pray to the saint , so is perfectly normal here seeing places where people work daily with catholic aspects YET , this is not properly seen on the church and is BANNED if we could say , so i dont think an proper true catholic would do that kind of stuff )

 

Plus , lucifer and christ aspects? Would love to hear more of that if possible.

[Vendredie]

This woman is most definitely not a flake. She's very smart, has seriously practiced for a long time, and embraces the practice of witchcraft. Even doesn't shy away from Goddess worship, but openly associates Oshun with the Blessed Virgin, for example.

I think this is a phenomenon of New Orleans, being legally Catholic, and everyone just doing what they do since the founding. Vodou definitely doesn't hesitate to associate lwa with saints.

It's just something I'm learning, and I think it's helping me grow, accusations of "SPAG" aside (like there's something wrong with it, really?). I grew up in a heavily evangelistic Protestant atmosphere, so my first reaction to mixing christianity and pagan faiths is "that's not right!" even if it's academically right, and the archeotypes line up.

Well then, that debunks my theory of her being a teenage "Christopagan" who just wants to cast spells without pissing Jesus off.

 

I don't know really anything about vodou, but I do doubt that it's totally compatible with Protestant Christianity.

[RankStranger]

Flake.

[lunaticheathen]

This woman is most definitely not a flake. She's very smart, has seriously practiced for a long time, and embraces the practice of witchcraft. Even doesn't shy away from Goddess worship, but openly associates Oshun with the Blessed Virgin, for example.

I think this is a phenomenon of New Orleans, being legally Catholic, and everyone just doing what they do since the founding. Vodou definitely doesn't hesitate to associate lwa with saints.

It's just something I'm learning, and I think it's helping me grow, accusations of "SPAG" aside (like there's something wrong with it, really?). I grew up in a heavily evangelistic Protestant atmosphere, so my first reaction to mixing christianity and pagan faiths is "that's not right!" even if it's academically right, and the archeotypes line up.

Well then, that debunks my theory of her being a teenage "Christopagan" who just wants to cast spells without pissing Jesus off.

 

I don't know really anything about vodou, but I do doubt that it's totally compatible with Protestant Christianity.

 

She is very much NOT a flake. She's not only practiced, but actually OWNED this occult store for over 13 years. So she's likely practiced for much longer. I haven't had a chance to ask her about it, but she did make another comment in conversation - "Jesus was awesome, I don't know why people have to fuck it up for him so much." And she was never protestant, so it's a whole different ballgame.

No, Vodou wouldn't work in protestant christianity. Catholicism can be merged with it though, and that very much shows up in New World practices of it.

[dichotomy]

Hmm I can only comment from experience which is rather minor, but I know lots of people who identify themselves as catholic, send their kids to RC schools, get them baptised, do first communion etc. and believe in *God* but aren't really prctising Christians in the way that say my strong bornagan friends are. It's more that catholicism is their religious identity, it's been in their family for years and there are traditions but their actual religious beliefs and practises go much further than that. My aunt and cousins are quite open paganism, witchcraft and horoscopes, they believe in many things that my protestant family would consider *of the devil* and yet they are firmly catholic on paper...

[Neon Genesis]

We studied about things like this in my World Civilizations class in college last year where we studied how Muslim converts in Africa still retained many of their shaman traditions and beliefs while at the same time believing in Allah and Muhammed, so while mixing monotheism with witchcraft may be uncommon, it's not totally unheard of. If there's gay Catholics out there, Catholic witches isn't that big of a stretch.

[Objet_trouve24]

You're definitely right in saying baptist is way different from catholic. Turns out Catholicism is actually fairly close to paganism anyway. Think about the rituals for instance. Both have rituals with candles and incence and such. But even the history is interesting. It's amazing how much the two have in common, and sometimes in history they wind up overlapping. If you really want your mind blown, go look at Brigid, a catholic saint AND a pagan goddess (could be two different entities, but try telling that to the pagan followers). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid

 

I actually know a catholic witch, who even wrote an article about the similarities between the two seemingly conflicting religions (wish I could get a copy from her, not sure if she still has it). And there are a ton of witches who believe in the christian version of angels and demons. It's not my way, but it works better than I thought it would.

 

And yeah, I've met baptist witches...in my experience they've always been kind of off, kind of strange. Very smart, although sometimes still bigoted and stubborn in their more christian beliefs, but always entertaining, if you keep in mind they'll probably be batshit insane.

 

We actually have a Jewish synagogue here that recognizes a mother goddess. They told me that some of the names for god in the bible were actually feminine names, so they took that as meaning that god was both male and female, and that certain goddesses may have been incarnations of YHWH in feminine form. They were very cool people, really smart, and I recognize that even though I couldn't wrap my head around it.

 

So yeah, it's not my way, but it's pretty interesting stuff, often it's quite respectable, and actually more understandable than christianity on it's own. At least it often tries to undo sexism, homophobia, and the general ignorance that judeo-christian religions fall into so much.

[lunaticheathen]

I knew about Brigid and all that, and the academic reasons why Catholicism can fit with paganism/witchcraft, being many things in it were taken from pagans, but this is the first time I've had a close friend actually voice the idea that it works for her. So I'm moving from academic understanding to experiential.

 

And yes, baptist and wicca together makes for serious batshit flakeoid weirdos. I encountered a couple of those. One was just trying wicca out for size, freaked out, and called the cops of me, lied and said I was dealing drugs. So maybe my experience with "christian witches" isn't the best one to go on for understanding.

 

I just keep in mind, at all times, that lay catholics are of a completely different mindset than the baptists, especially in New Orleans. We make gumbo, literally and figuratively, all the time.

[PandaPirate]

I've started to get some work (finally) in a local occult shop with a great lady who I made instant friends with when I moved down here. She's certainly an interesting person, and I've talked magic and spells with her, and certain ideas and local happenings and people, but she hadn't really revealed much about her personal beliefs. Which is fine, I never felt it necessary for anyone to spell (haha, pun) out beliefs for me to like or understand them as people.

But just yesterday, as I was stringing a witches' ladder for later charming and sale, a couple of guys came in looking for someone to be in a documentary on occult and voodoo in New Orleans. The owner starts talking with them about other contacts for voodoo, because it seemed like that's what they were more interested in, and she's a talker when she gets going, so the conversation goes on for a while. It moves over to the part of the store where I'm beading, and I catch something that doesn't exactly surprise me, but made me stop and think.

This is a confirmed witch. I know this from what she knows, has told me, the altar in the back room. But she said she was Catholic. Not really unusual for New Orleans, but I have always wondered about the whole "Christian Witch" thing. It's very counter-intuitive, but it kind of makes sense. I've heard her talk about God, which I took in a over-arching power sense, even if it made me flinch a little, but last week, she also said "Thank you, Jesus!" about something. I chalked it up to being raised in Southern Louisiana, maybe an automatic phrase, but it was still odd to me.

But now, she was talking to these guys about how the mind is the "Lucifer aspect" of a person, and the heart is the "Christ aspect", and the need for balance. Ok, so she's not a dogmatic hellfire christian by any stretch, but I am perplexed by the identification with being "Catholic", but running a very successful and eclectic occult store.

We have talked about being eclectic in spirituality, and how there's nothing wrong with using what works for you, so maybe it's that. Maybe she loves her past in a way I just don't. Also, Baptists are VERY different from Catholics. Maybe it's just New Orleans.

I'm wondering how to bring this up with her without seeming like I'm being critical, because I really like her, she's very kind and generous, hell, she's giving me a(n off the books) job when things are scary economically. I'm also just plain curious about how the whole "Christian Witch" thing works. I've met a handful over the years, but none of them seemed a- very committed to the witch part, or b- very smart. This is a smart, committed woman.

I'll update if I get a chance to ask her about it, I'll probably broach it from the whole "I was raised around christians like -this-, what's so different that you stuck with the label of Catholic?"

Maybe?

 

 

 

I was raised Catholic in New Orleans. I became Wiccan in my teenage years and found it easy to blend the two religions back then.

When the African slaves were brought over, they had to hide their true religion, so they mixed Voudon with Catholocism.

[OpheliaGinger]

If I'm not mistaken, Voodoo is a mixture of African religious traditions and Catholicism because the African slaves were not allowed to practice their native beliefs, so they merged them with Catholicism--thus creating a Christian witch (sort of).

[Neon Genesis]

Aren't there lots of people in Mexico who don't believe in the Catholic church but worship the Our Lady of Guadalupe as a goddess in her own right or something like that?

[Horsey_Girl]

Many poison dart frogs secrete lipophilic alkaloid toxins through their skin. Alkaloids in the skin glands of poison frogs serve as a chemical defence against predation, and they are therefore able to be active alongside potential predators during the day. About 28 structural classes of alkaloids are known in poison frogs.^[3][16] The most toxic of poison-dart frog species is Phyllobates terribilis. It is argued that dart frogs do not synthesize their poisons, but sequester the chemicals from arthropod prey items, such as ants, centipedes and mites. This is known as the dietary hypothesis.^[17] Because of this, captive-bred animals do not contain significant levels of toxins. Despite the toxins used by some poison dart frogs, there are some predators that have developed the ability to withstand them, including the Amazon ground snake (Liophis epinephelus).^[18]

 

Chemicals extracted from the skin of Epipedobates tricolor may be shown to have medicinal value.^[19] One such chemical is a painkiller 200 times as potent as morphine, called epibatidine, that has unfortunately demonstrated unacceptable gastrointestinal side effects in humans.^[20] Secretions from dendrobatids are also showing promise as muscle relaxants, heart stimulants and appetite suppressants.^[21] The most poisonous of these frogs, the Golden Poison Frog (Phyllobates terribilis), has enough toxin on average to kill ten to twenty men or about ten thousand mice.^[22] Most other dendrobatids, while colorful and toxic enough to discourage predation, pose far less risk to humans or other large animals.

 

 

[Horsey_Girl]

Many poison dart frogs secrete lipophilic alkaloid toxins through their skin. Alkaloids in the skin glands of poison frogs serve as a chemical defence against predation, and they are therefore able to be active alongside potential predators during the day. About 28 structural classes of alkaloids are known in poison frogs.^[3][16] The most toxic of poison-dart frog species is Phyllobates terribilis. It is argued that dart frogs do not synthesize their poisons, but sequester the chemicals from arthropod prey items, such as ants, centipedes and mites. This is known as the dietary hypothesis.^[17] Because of this, captive-bred animals do not contain significant levels of toxins. Despite the toxins used by some poison dart frogs, there are some predators that have developed the ability to withstand them, including the Amazon ground snake (Liophis epinephelus).^[18]

 

Chemicals extracted from the skin of Epipedobates tricolor may be shown to have medicinal value.^[19] One such chemical is a painkiller 200 times as potent as morphine, called epibatidine, that has unfortunately demonstrated unacceptable gastrointestinal side effects in humans.^[20] Secretions from dendrobatids are also showing promise as muscle relaxants, heart stimulants and appetite suppressants.^[21] The most poisonous of these frogs, the Golden Poison Frog (Phyllobates terribilis), has enough toxin on average to kill ten to twenty men or about ten thousand mice.^[22] Most other dendrobatids, while colorful and toxic enough to discourage predation, pose far less risk to humans or other large animals.

 

 

[Antlerman]

My beliefs are based on feminist thealogy and on my own desires to rebel against "orthodox" Christianity. Mixing the "holy" with the "unholy" is so much more of a kick up the ass than merely rejecting the "holy" would be! I think it was Francis Bacon who said that Satan's sin was one thing--i. e., wanting so much to be like God that he wanted to be god--but that wanting to drag God down to our level was something altogether more evil. I want to drag God down to our level!

I can't comment much on the specifics of the practices themselves as it's not how I personally approach things, but something you said in this stands out to me. As you refer to mixing of the holy with the unholy, it strikes me as a form of iconoclasm which can seem to have two effects. One is that it removes power from the symbols associated with a past that people wish to move beyond by altering them with traditionally taboo ways, therefore symbolically asserting that change, and two, it potentially infuses the old symbols with new meaning to meet current needs. To 'drag God down to our level," as you put it is to remove the power of an old system infused into its symbols, by stripping the symbol of its status they gave it. To add new symbols to them is to try to uphold a new ideal or vision, so to speak.

 

Frankly, I've always said that ironically, the fundamentalists of any religion do better at destroying their own symbols, stripping them of all efficacy without replacing it with anything else, than anybody else can. To make God a literalist object that can be argued for citing evidences, such as you might citing proofs for Bigfoot for instance, is to remove God from Heaven where it would otherwise stand as an elevated symbol infused with power, and make it an object to be looked at scientifically like some organic substance. They have more impact against God in the world, than any activist atheist might ever hope to bring in all their zealous arguments and comments of ridicule against that God. Theirs is not an act of desire to bring change to the symbols or to infuse them with meaning but a mental ignorance unleashed upon the holy, in whatever form it takes.

[par4dcourse]

"Reality. What a concept."--Robin Williams

 

I still find it difficult to worship the unseen/unknown. If any of them ever provide anything of substance, I'd reconsider.

[Antlerman]

"Reality. What a concept."--Robin Williams

It is, just that. And it's amazing how many think they understand the nature of that concept enough to scoff at others. That's the real joke, actually.

 

I still find it difficult to worship the unseen/unknown. If any of them ever provide anything of substance, I'd reconsider.

Do you have ideals in your life you live for? Are those seen? How do you relate to those unseen ideals? Symbolically, perhaps? Also, is it logical that anyone would continue with something that did not provide any substance for them? How logical is that to think otherwise?

 

How different are you really? Your symbols take a different form?

[par4dcourse]

Do you have ideals in your life you live for? Are those seen? How do you relate to those unseen ideals? Symbolically, perhaps? Also, is it logical that anyone would continue with something that did not provide any substance for them? How logical is that to think otherwise?

 

How different are you really? Your symbols take a different form?

In short, no.

 

I don't worship those or any other symbols. I don't have a set purpose in life except continuing to live, which is a biological survival trait from early evolutionary stages.

 

I didn't criticize anyone. I only stated my personal opinion.

 

 

 

[Antlerman]

Do you have ideals in your life you live for? Are those seen? How do you relate to those unseen ideals? Symbolically, perhaps? Also, is it logical that anyone would continue with something that did not provide any substance for them? How logical is that to think otherwise?

 

How different are you really? Your symbols take a different form?

In short, no.

 

I don't worship those or any other symbols. I don't have a set purpose in life except continuing to live, which is a biological survival trait from early evolutionary stages.

Define what worship entails. What is the motive behind it, and what the act elicits in people? Is that seen elsewhere in human individuals and societies, without it necessary being focused on a supernatural symbol such as a god? How is it not fair to understand them as the same thing, even those the objects of devotion are different - whether they are secular or religious?

 

You don't live/hold to any ideals? Are you a simple forest animal without human-level conceptual thought? What about your atheism? A better world through reason? A world free of superstition and religions, such that it motivates participation in discussions like these? Those for instance. What about truth, justice, and equality? Are those ideals, or just some other thing in nature like a grub for eating under a rock on the forest floor?

[par4dcourse]

Define what worship entails. What is the motive behind it, and what the act elicits in people? Is that seen elsewhere in human individuals and societies, without it necessary being focused on a supernatural symbol such as a god? How is it not fair to understand them as the same thing, even those the objects of devotion are different - whether they are secular or religious?

 

You don't live/hold to any ideals? Are you a simple forest animal without human-level conceptual thought? What about your atheism? A better world through reason? A world free of superstition and religions, such that it motivates participation in discussions like these? Those for instance. What about truth, justice, and equality? Are those ideals, or just some other thing in nature like a grub for eating under a rock on the forest floor?

 

From Dictionary.com

1. worship: reverent honor and homage paid to god or a sacredpersonage, or to any object regarded as sacred.

By definition, I don't worship.

I don't see how worship and rational thoughts are entwined. Surely I can do one without the other.

 

I can believe in no god without believing in an anti-god either.