Christians don't have faith.

[Checkmate]

I think it’s funny. I’ve been noticing that Christians don’t truly have “faith.”

 

Christians often congratulate themselves, celebrating their ability to believe by “faith”. In church circles, they whoop and holler about being “blessed by God” to have received “faith” to believe the “foolishness of God” versus the “wisdom of man.”

 

When they are alone, Christians glory in their ignorance. Their ability to believe the “gospel” without proof, evidence or reason makes them “children of God.” It is considered a badge of honor to be thus “blessed”.

 

They take solace in the fact that they are “fools for Christ”, not burdened with a “carnal mind” that needs “proof” to believe god.

 

“I don’t know” and “God said it, that settles it!” have become the two most popular mantras of Christianity today, as they wallow in their ignorance and unwavering “faith” in Christ.

 

But then, along comes the skeptic. The unbeliever who accuses Christians of the VERY things they were just glorying in.

 

The skeptic says that Christians are fools. He accuses Christians that adhering to “faith” is irrational. “Faith” makes no sense. The skeptic says that Christianity has no proofs, it has no evidence and is most unreasonable. (Everything that the Christian was formerly celebrating himself.)

 

That’s when a funny transformation occurs in the heart and mind of the Christian. (We see it every day on these forums.)

 

Embarrassed at being thought of as an ignorant Neanderthal, foolishly believing any nursery rhyme or ghost story told him, the Christian suddenly scrambles to produce “evidence that demands a verdict.” No longer confident to simply stand on the shifting sand that is “Christ”, the Christian abandons his/her “faith” in exchange for “evidence” that “proves” what they believe is “real”.

 

In a frightened panic, and backed into a corner, the Christian throws aside all notions of “faith” and begins citing all sorts of “proofs” and “apologetics” and “reasons” for his believing. The Christian is now indignant at being accused of possessing simple-minded “faith”. S/he is, after all, a “modern” person. They are not, you understand, so “irrational”, “gullible” nor “brainwashed” as to believe ONLY by “faith.”

 

Oh really? Well, that is NOT what you tell yourselves in church circles! In fact, that’s not what Christians say when they first post on these forums. They all consistently claim to believe by “faith alone”(Sola Fide!), and then they immediately begin to attempt to “prove by power of reason and debate” the “facts” and “evidence” of Christianity. WTF?

 

Isn’t it funny how Christians will curse and denounce “reason”, “proof” and “evidence” as counter-productive to “faith” and being carnally-minded (a sin), but when the skeptic comes along, the Christian will abandon his embarrassing “blind faith” position and argue relying upon “intelligent reason”, “verifiable proof” and “historical evidence” to support his religion? (Note: There are NO proofs or evidences for Christianity apart from “faith”.)

 

The Christian bookshelves, pulpits and the internet are flooded with “apologetics” attempting to “prove” Christianity is “true.” Never mind “faith” and the “bible”. It’s obvious that people don’t believe any of that nonsense. Let’s find some archeological “evidence”! Let’s find some extra-biblical “evidence”! Let’s “prove” beyond a shadow of a doubt, even in a court of law, that our “faith” is “reasonable”. (Insecure much? )

 

The bible records “Jesus” as saying “If you have FAITH as small as a mustard seed” you can move mountains. (Matthew 17:20) You should also be able to cast out demons, drink poison, speak in other tongues and do much greater miracles than “Jesus.”

 

And yet, I don’t see any of these mountain-moving “faith miracles” occurring. All I DO see are Christians exchanging their “faith” armor for the more practical and comfy “robes of philosophy and reason.” (I suppose that armor can chafe after a while!)

 

Apparently “faith” is a sufficient enough topic for books, esoteric discussions and sermons, but NOT legitimate enough to live by and demonstrate. Ha-ha.

 

I think it’s funny. Hypocritical and pathetically funny.

 

Give it up, Christians. You don’t have “faith.” You may well “believe”, but that is a far cry from having “faith.”

 

What’s the difference? “Faith” is an action word. You can claim to “believe” that you can drink poison and recover, but until you DO IT, you have not demonstrated “faith”. You see, “faith” is in the DOING. It goes beyond “believing.” You Christians can claim to “believe” all sorts of things, but I say you don’t have “FAITH.” You are not DOERS of the word, and thus you deceive yourselves. (James 1:22)

 

Anyone care to prove me wrong? Go for it. I’ll be over here, NOT holding my breath.

[Cerise]

I don't know about not having any faith. But I'm still waiting to find at least one christian that has as much as a mustard seed's worth of faith. There's some landscaping that needs to be done.

[Vigile]

Not a damn one of them has "rubber meets the road" faith of any kind either. They all believe on some level that god hears their prayers, but they are never SURE he will really answer them in a meaningful way. And, none of them, bar the occasional sub W IQer, believes that god will actually regrow a limb or raise the dead. They attribute the essoteric and everyday occurences to god, but not one of them would dare go out on a serious limb for him. They balk at this, but their actions speak clearly.

 

You bring up a good point; when they resort to combating our logic with their own twisted version of the same they utterly undermine and deny the value of faith. They know that if they were to tell us "you have your logic, I have my faith" they could reasonably be laughed at for their gulibility. What a vicious circle they find themselves in.

[Ouroboros]

I think it’s funny.  I’ve been noticing that Christians don’t truly have “faith.”

I read this part and felt compelled to post immediately, without reading the rest of your post.

I just wanted to tell you: I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

 

When you're Christian you will always walk in some doubt that you have your faith in line with the scriptures, and if you are truly saved, that you're not following the wrong denomination and so on. But also, the faith is not strong enough to read anti-christian or anti-religious books. Because those books will take away your faith. The biggest challenge for Christians, all the time, is to keep the faith.

 

Now I will read the rest of your post MrGrinch!

[Ouroboros]

MrGrinch, you're striking a very interesting thought here.

 

We know about the claim that we can't "test" God, by asking him for miracles etc. So we should believe in God without any substantiation.

 

But who said we can't test someones faith?

Christian, prove to me that you do have faith! (mustard seed, mountain, poison, snakes, etc...)

 

And I'm not talking about that you manage to keep your delusion and live in denial through hardship, I'm talking about a proof that you do have faith the size of a mustard seed.

[Vixentrox]

Oh, they have faith, it's just LESS than a mustard seed's worth or they could do what the bible says they could do.

[bob]

Thanks for posting Grinch. So very true.

[Checkmate]

MrGrinch,

You're silly.

[pug]

FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS

February 2, 2005

 

A small congregation in the foothills of the Great Smokies built a new sanctuary on a piece of land willed to them by a church member. Ten days before the new church was to open, the local building inspector informed the pastor that the parking lot was inadequate for the size of the building. Until the church doubled the size of the parking lot, they would not be able to use the new sanctuary.

 

Unfortunately, the church with its undersized lot had used every inch of their land except for the mountain against which it had been built. In order to build more parking spaces, they would have to move the mountain out of the back yard. Undaunted, the pastor announced the next Sunday morning that he would meet that evening with all members who had "mountain moving faith." They would hold a prayer session asking God to remove the mountain from the back yard and to somehow provide enough money to have it paved and painted before the scheduled opening dedication service the following week.

 

At the appointed time, 24 of the congregation's 300 members assembled for prayer. They prayed for nearly three hours. At ten o'clock the pastor said the final "Amen." "We'll open next Sunday as scheduled," he assured everyone. "God has never let us down before, and I believe He will be faithful this time too."

 

The next morning as he was working in his study there came a loud knock at his door. When he called "come in," a rough looking construction foreman appeared, removing his hard hat as he entered. "Excuse me, Reverend. I'm from Acme Construction Company over in the next county. We're building a huge new shopping mall over there and we need some fill dirt. Would you be willing to sell us a chunk of that mountain behind the church? We'll pay you for the dirt we remove and pave all the exposed area free of charge, if we can have it right away. We can't do anything else until we get the dirt in and allow it to settle properly."

 

The little church was dedicated the next Sunday as originally planned and there were far more members with "mountain moving faith" on opening Sunday than there had been the previous week!

 

Would you have shown up for that prayer meeting? Some people say faith comes from miracles. But others know: MIRACLES COME FROM FAITH!

 

 

~ 1997-2005 Motivating Moments LLC

[SkepticOfBible]

Off course let's not forget how each denominations consider itself right while others are wrong

[pug]

Here's another interesting read:

 

http://www.jamesanderson-writer.co.uk/fait...-mountains.html

 

I do not know how to call this but at my church I have witnessed "mountain-moving" faith... and too un-believable to atheists to recount... so... never mind.

 

Personally, i'm just growing from faith to faith. Mustard seed to bush hopefully.

[pug]

Off course let's not forget how each denominations consider itself right while others are wrong

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if generally, the main concept is intact, should be ok, don't you think? So much in-fighting and politicking in such a simple religion! Even in the bible itself, OT circumcision, NT no need... hooo boy.

 

Like atheism, no god but some wish to be strong as in de-bunking thesim; while others are just happy being godless; different denoniminations; same belief system.

[SkepticOfBible]

Well, if generally, the main concept is intact, should be ok, don't you think? So much in-fighting and politicking in such a simple religion! Even in the bible itself, OT circumcision, NT no need... hooo boy. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well the fact of the matter is Christians can't even agree on the most basics of concept, even they follow the same book.

 

Mary Worship

Just illustrates how two christian who claim to be filled with the holy spirit can't even agree on the interpration of the same book

 

How We Got Our Bible

An interesting debate between Catholic and Protestant. The Catholics seem to have a upper hand here. I like to see protestant christians responds to some of the questions catholics ask in this blog

 

Mary Worship

Just illustrates how two christian who claim to be filled with the holy spirit can't even agree on the interpration of the same book.

 

Dueling Christians

A debate between a Trinitian and a Non trinitian about whether god is a trinity or not. The following quote from the above page

 

Christians have had almost 2,000 years to get this fundamental issue straight and they just can't do it, despite having the guidance of the "Holy Spirit" which they claim to be filled with

 

Here another site who consider himself a christian but not a Jehovah's witness. Yet he doesn't believe in the Trinity or Hell fire. However again he is basing his idealogy based on the bible. He also claims to be true christian.

 

Bible Truth

 

So who amongst you is right?

[MQTA]

I don't know about not having any faith.  But I'm still waiting to find at least one christian that has as much as a mustard seed's worth of faith.  There's some landscaping that needs to be done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and mountains to be moved

[MQTA]

I read this part and felt compelled to post immediately, without reading the rest of your post.

I just wanted to tell you: I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

 

When you're Christian you will always walk in some doubt that you have your faith in line with the scriptures, and if you are truly saved, that you're not following the wrong denomination and so on. But also, the faith is not strong enough to read anti-christian or anti-religious books. Because those books will take away your faith. The biggest challenge for Christians, all the time, is to keep the faith.

 

Now I will read the rest of your post MrGrinch!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

yeah, amazing, eh? They ask questions, but if you give them a link, they won't DARE read it, they just hand wave it away as being of Satan or wrong or anti-this, anti-that... but won't even read it to see if there is any merit.

 

I've had people go violent on me at the mere suggestion that there was no flood, no adam, no tower of babel.. the simple kiddy stories. "well, I believe them, how dare you say otherwise"

[Amethyst]

FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS

 

Just because you read something in a chain e-mail letter doesn't make it true. Just because you read something elsewhere on the Internet doesn't make it true. And just because you read something in a 2,000 year-old book doesn't make it true.

 

For example, here's a spam letter I got this morning that smells like a phishing scheme:

 

simply visit our company web site above for details on how it works, then

send a letter to the mailing address on our company web site above with

your non-profit and/or charity status and address in your country of origin

enclosed, along with your email address and we will then send you all the

specifications needed on how to receive this non-cost, non-commercial, non-

transactional, non-relationship, charity/non-profit courtesy emailing.

 

This non-commercial, non-transactional, non-relationship, courtesy emailing

has an important primary purpose of helping society by assisting non-profits

& charities have their non-profit/non-commercial mission statement/special

message sent out to 2.5 million opt-in emails as a courtesy to help worldwide

in national & global relief efforts for various causes in need of support.

 

if this is not a non-profit/charity contact email address and/or you are not

interested in our occassional non-commercial, non-transactional, non-cost,

non-relationship, courtesy emailings we perform for various non-profits and

charities, remove the email above: http://www.broadcastingemail.us/dounsub.php

contact us at: charity info, po box 1259, seattle, wa 98101, usa

 

----- ---- --- -- - -

thanks to the technology of email, here are only a few of the countless

charities & non-profit organizations we have countributed to in the past:

adventist develop & relief agency international, child help usa, direct

relief international, doctors without borders, episcopal relief and

development, international medical corps, mercy corps, operation usa, red

cross hurricane relief division, red cross washington state chapter, the

salvation army, among countless others in need of global assistance.

 

If you believe the "faith moves mountains" story, you might as well go to their website and enter in your credit card number and social security number, because you are helping someone. After all, the spam could be a sign from god rather than a scam to get all of your money.

 

[Mythra]

what a miraculous story, pug. Please tell us you aren't that much of a simpleton.

 

Faith to move mountains. Involving a construction company putting in a mall and a member of the congregation surrepticiously answering an add for "fill dirt needed".

 

That's it guys. I can't take the overwhelming proof of miracles anymore. I'm going back to Jesus.

[Checkmate]

FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS

February 2, 2005

Oh good grief, Charlie Brown! The lengths that Christians will go through to claim a "miracle".

 

How in the WORLD is a fucking coincidence (if true) of man the same as a MIRACLE? Since when does "God", the Almighty, require human intermediaries to perform his miracles? I don't recall Jesus saying that God would send the "Acme Mountain Moving Company" to move your mountain, free of charge. I distinctly got the gist of a mountain suddenly leaping OF IT'S OWN ACCORD into the sea. No human assistance required.

 

Is "God" truly so weak that he must contract out his "miracles"? And if so, WHY do Christians think that THIS will impress anyone?

 

How fucking lame. Try again, pug.

 

But no more "human interest" stories, where PEOPLE are doing shit, but giving "God" the credit. Show me a fucking MIRACLE! Not coincidences. Not chance. Not luck. Not humans co-operating and doing it themselves. I want to see time and space and matter and energy altering INEXPLICABLY and DEMONSTRABLY. A fucking MIRACLE!

[white_raven23]

FAITH CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS

February 2, 2005

 

A small congregation in the foothills of the Great Smokies built a new sanctuary on a piece of land willed to them by a church member.

<snip>

The Greak Smokies refers to an area spanning North Carolina and Tennessee.

 

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/

 

And most churches have names. This one doesn't?

The next morning as he was working in his study there came a loud knock at his door. When he called "come in," a rough looking construction foreman appeared, removing his hard hat as he entered. "Excuse me, Reverend. I'm from Acme Construction Company over in the next county.

<snip>

 

Most "Reverends" have names too. Not once is this church leader referred to by name.

 

But HEY! There IS an ACME Construction Company!

 

http://www.acmeconstruction.com/

 

But oh, look. They serve Northern California and the San Joaquin area.

 

Very West Coast. In case you hav not checked, the Smoky Mountains are much farther EAST.

 

 

They creators of this article did a halfway decent job of making it seem convincing to the reader that "wants" to believe it's true. You've got your amazing miracle happening seemingly in the middle of nowhere, with no obvious names, so the validity of the event cannot be confirmed.

 

Too bad the names they DID use referred to a verifiable construction company and a mountain range that couldn't be farther apart geographically speaking and still be on the same continent.

 

 

You funny christians. More in love with the message, than bothering to verify if the event supposedly conveying the message ever really happened.

 

HEY! I have an idea! Why don't you collect a bunch of these anecdotal, moral values stories together, and put them all in one book to make them accessable to everyone! What a great idea! Let's.........*someone whispers in my ear*.....oh really?

 

Damn. it was a decent idea....but I guess it's already been done. Some volume called the Bible.

[Checkmate]

.......................

They creators of this article did a halfway decent job of making it seem convincing to the reader that "wants" to believe it's true. You've got your amazing miracle happening seemingly in the middle of nowhere, with no obvious names, so the validity of the event cannot be confirmed.

.......................

Thanks for the set-up, white_raven! For this calls to mind EXACTLY how the bible stories have come into existence.

 

Back when the "bible" was concocted and collaborated upon, there was NO WAY to verify or disprove what was written. Therefore all sorts of nonsense was simply accepted as "gospel".

 

But TODAY, the pugs of the world cannot get away with such legerdemain. With internet resources at our disposal, and the freedom to think and question, the religious nutbars are finding it IMPOSSIBLE to fool everyone.

 

Only those people who WANT to be deceived will be deceived. Enter the THEISTS.

[Mythra]

I've got a question. How can you have just a little faith? Or a lot of faith? And, is just a little faith adequate for salvation? If so, how little? Where's the cutoff line?

 

Or do you have to have a lot of faith to get saved? How do you get more faith?

 

I have faith that the world is round. It is complete faith. You can't have just a little faith about something that you know to be a certainty.

 

I have faith about the town I was born in. I don't remember the event, but I have complete faith in it.

 

People don't have this kind of complete faith in God. They THINK they believe. They WANT to believe. They are afraid not to believe. And they are also afraid to do anything that might contribute to their unbelief, so they immediately dismiss anything opposing their religion as nonsense or satanic in origin. And further investigation is out of the question.

 

Fragile freakin thing, that faith.

[Vigile]

But HEY! There IS an ACME Construction Company!

 

Nice detective work WR! And ACME Construction... what a joke. That should have been the first hint this article was a fraud. A generic name, most commonly used by Wile E Coyote as supplier of all things destructive.

 

This false article does prove the point of the IP, even in their wildest dreams they can't imagine a true laws-of-physics defying miracle. They believe god can do only what can be done in the natural world by natural means.

 

Looking forward to your response to Raven's excellent discovery Pug.

[Vigile]

I have faith that the world is round. It is complete faith.

 

That's not faith, that's observable knowlege. Don't mean to be nitpicky, but that's the mistake xtians make when they try to attribute everyday observances as faith; i.e., faith that the sun will rise, that my car will start, etc.

[Mythra]

That's not faith, that's observable knowlege.  Don't mean to be nitpicky, but that's the mistake xtians make when they try to attribute everyday observances as faith; i.e., faith that the sun will rise, that my car will start, etc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lo siento, mucho. But bullshit.

 

It's not observable. I'm taking other people's word for it. I see photos taken from space, and I believe that they aren't faked. I learned about a spherical earth in school, and I trusted what I was taught. The evidence presented lead to the belief. There's no way I would have came up with it through observation.

 

In the same way, christians trust what they are taught about God, and faith is developed due to trusting in the evidence presented.

 

I will admit, though, that the nature of the evidence for the two are light years apart as far as being verifiable and unchallenged.

[Vigile]

Lo siento, mucho.  But bullshit.

 

 

I spent about 15 minutes writing out a reply here, then my internet zapped out and I lost the whole thing without saving it. Fuck it.