Projecting Difficult Thoughts & Solutions To Inadeqecies Onto God

[Phanta]

I read something interesting today in Max Dimont's The Jews, God & History which follows some thinking I had come to independently when, last year, I was considering why people on the down and out were so drawn to converting to Christianity. It revolves around projection, and, for me, this was some pretty profound insight as to a function a real or pretend relationship (it doesn't matter, so long as they believe it is real) with a perfect "God"--Christian or Jewish or Deist, etc.-- has for many humans, and why it is vivid and important to so many of us.

 

On a personal note, this idea came to me and continues to resonate because it appears that believers who put strong projections onto God in areas of difficulty/lack have a cope which I lack to retain that sense of security on the inside during difficulty. Real or imagined, they are seemingly able to come to terms mentally with at least some inadequacies via this method. The idea arose after watching that film Antlerman and his friend put together where it was explained, "When someone asks 'What would Jesus do?', they are really asking, 'What would a person with perfect morality do?'" Whether Jesus had perfect morality or not is a topic of much debate in these forums (and by me), but in that moment, I understood, and was even able to stand back and look at the basic motivation, and call it both idealistic and noble.

 

The passage describes what Dimont thinks happened to Abraham when he made his covenant with God:

 

Psychiatrists are familiar with a psychological phenomenon known as "projection." Let us say that an individual is obsessed by a thought, which, because it is painful or forbidden, he does not want to acknowledge as his own. On the other hand, he can't give it up. He wants the thought, but doesn't want to be its owner. he longs for it unconsciously, but wants to reject it on a conscious level. his mind therefore resorts to an unconscious "trick." He "projects" the thought onto someone else, and the convinces himself that it is the other person who suggested the thought to him or accused him of it. These methods of hearing or perseiving such projected messages are known as auditory or visual hallucinations--that is, hearing voices, or seeing things, that are not there.

 

People who have such hallucinations are not necessarily neurotic or psychotic. They can be very intense or inspired people. From a psychoanalytic viewpoint, therefore, it could be that Abraham himself conceived the idea of a covenant with an Almighty Father figure, represented as Jehovah, and projected onto this father figure his own wish to safeguard his children and his children's children for future generations.

 

Dimont's example is particularly clear to me when I think of two common human struggles:

 

1) The desire of a loving parent to provide everything for their progeny in conflict with their own limited nature as a human being. At a very basic level, we cannot be around forever for our children and grandchildren. Wouldn't it be great if someone were? With a belief in a god who is just that, anxiety is soothed.

 

2) The desire to have a wise, loving parent. Even a fantastic parent does not have all the answers. A poor parent has very few answers. Many people crave the perfect parent...a Father. That sense of being unfulfilled by one's earthly parent or parents seems to be a real driver for conversion. I.e. I don't have a sufficient relationship with my father, so I am going to project everything I ever wanted from a good father onto my deity, and in this way I get exactly what I am looking for.

 

Finally, it strikes me that individual/group understandings of God vary so because the projection needs of individuals (and groups, especially if individuals who trend need-wise clump together) vary.

 

None of this necessarily confirms or denies the existence of a perfect deity, but it does help me understand better the motivation of the believer to be committed to one, as my experience is that it is hard to cope with inadequacies or the self and the insufficiency of each life circumstance.

 

I guess I'm curious if anyone has identified any thoughts that were uncomfortable for them to think through or senses of lack in their lives that was somehow fulfilled or eased in a specific way by believing in a God who could either be responsible for that difficult thought/belief (say an aversion to homosexuality that one doesn't want to own) or be the perfect parent/caretaker...that kind of thing.

 

Phanta

[L.B.]

Phanta, you're basically telling the story of my current home life.

 

My wife of 10 years, partner of 16, retreats into her fantasy world of

Yowee the perfect dad on an almost daily basis. Her dad was a neglectful

alcoholic shithead who was emotionally distant and rudely authoritative

when he almost never had the relational currency with his family to be that way.

 

She routinely talks about how "god" is everything that her earthly relations aren't.

 

Makes it suck big-time when I have to go and act human... because she retreats from

me, too... and just trusts that Yowee and Jebus will "make it all right one day".

 

She is insisting lately that "god" is going to "speak" to me and bring me back to "him".

 

All this because I stopped attending church and none of the spiritual superheroes there

are charging up my spiritual hill to do battle with my issues. She is convinced that it will

take a miracle of direct revelation from Yowee to rescue me from the darkness of unbelief.

 

Forgive me if I don't drop dead from holding my breath too long.

[Phanta]

Wow...sounds like her perfect God-concept is a major coping mechanism for her. That's exactly the sort of thing I was wondering about.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Phanta

[Guest Valk0010]

I would agree with that, I think that is why alot of people believe in a god. But what about the statistic that said like a majority of people that grow up without a father figure, end up not being very religious or even atheists(I don't remember the exact numbers or anything.

[Phanta]

I would agree with that, I think that is why alot of people believe in a god. But what about the statistic that said like a majority of people that grow up without a father figure, end up not being very religious or even atheists(I don't remember the exact numbers or anything.

 

I guess they aren't looking for the inadequacy to be fixed by God...or at all.

 

I'm not really looking to establish causation or predict conversion or anything...just noticing a certain appeal and function it has for a couple people and wondering how widespread this particular bond is in believers.

 

Phanta

[HappyChef]

"I guess I'm curious if anyone has identified any thoughts that were uncomfortable for them to think through or senses of lack in their lives that was somehow fulfilled or eased in a specific way by believing in a God who could either be responsible for that difficult thought/belief (say an aversion to homosexuality that one doesn't want to own) or be the perfect parent/caretaker...that kind of thing."

 

Near the beginning of my Paramedic career I was forced to triage between 6 patients in a limited resource MVA.1 Medic and 2 basics with BLS supplies. As a result 2 died,even though had I the resources there would have beed no deaths.

 

Being the fundie I was at the time I hid behind the "It was GOD's will" rationalization.

Making a decision that kills brings a guilt and sense of failure like no other.At the time it was very necessary for me to have that "Father knows best" crutch.

[oddbird1963]

While I agree that people project their needs on a god figure they construct (as a society or as an individual), I don't see the need to speculate about Abraham. It's not even certain that he ever existed. If Abraham is an amalgamation of various lines of tribal legends about different patriarchal figures of millennial ago, it does little good to talk in terms of Abraham as an actual human projecting thoughts, hopes and dreams onto his god figure.

 

That being said, I suppose I projected my needs for inclusion and affirmation onto God, wanting to be looked upon with favor. I think David's finding favor with god was a central motif at that time in my young life.

[recoveringfromchristianity]

I think that for so many people there are really two huge reasons people want to believe in god.

 

1) That there is someone "bigger" than them in control - it is god's will or god never gives you anything you can't handle. He will take care of us.

 

I saw this a lot with new adult converts. Most of them had come from a terrible home life, were former drug addicts, alcoholics, abusers, abused, etc. They really wanted to believe that there was someone who cared and loved them. It didn't matter if god was true or not. It was a comfort thing.

 

2) Who wouldn't LOVE the idea that we will live forever with our loved ones?

 

Although I remember that every time people at church would ask someone about what heaven would be like - will we know our spouse and children, parents, etc. - the person would say that we wouldn't really know our spouses, children, etc. I used to think then who the hell wants to go to heaven? The only reason I would want to live forever is to be with the people I love.

[Phanta]

"I guess I'm curious if anyone has identified any thoughts that were uncomfortable for them to think through or senses of lack in their lives that was somehow fulfilled or eased in a specific way by believing in a God who could either be responsible for that difficult thought/belief (say an aversion to homosexuality that one doesn't want to own) or be the perfect parent/caretaker...that kind of thing."

 

Near the beginning of my Paramedic career I was forced to triage between 6 patients in a limited resource MVA.1 Medic and 2 basics with BLS supplies. As a result 2 died,even though had I the resources there would have beed no deaths.

 

Being the fundie I was at the time I hid behind the "It was GOD's will" rationalization.

Making a decision that kills brings a guilt and sense of failure like no other.At the time it was very necessary for me to have that "Father knows best" crutch.

 

Wow. That is a very intense example.

 

How would you cope, psychologically, with the same situation now, as an unbeliever?

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

While I agree that people project their needs on a god figure they construct (as a society or as an individual), I don't see the need to speculate about Abraham. It's not even certain that he ever existed. If Abraham is an amalgamation of various lines of tribal legends about different patriarchal figures of millennial ago, it does little good to talk in terms of Abraham as an actual human projecting thoughts, hopes and dreams onto his god figure.

 

For the purposes of the topic, it doesn't matter to me if Abraham was a real person projecting his needs, or a symbol of a people projecting their needs (which is what the real person--if he indeed existed--became anyway).

 

I just started reading Karen Armstong's "A History of God" last night. In the intro, she writes, "When I began to research this history of the idea and experience of God in the three related monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, I expected to find that God had simply been a projection of human needs and desires. I thought that 'he' would mirror the fears and yearnings of society at each stage of its development."

 

This, too, is my idea.

 

Armstrong goes on to write, "My predictions were not entirely unjustified, but I have been extremely surprised by some of my findings..."

 

I'm curious to see where her studies took her in this realm. (I also wonder if she's read Max Dimont...).

 

Anyway.

 

That being said, I suppose I projected my needs for inclusion and affirmation onto God, wanting to be looked upon with favor. I think David's finding favor with god was a central motif at that time in my young life.

 

Thanks for sharing. I don't know anything, really, about David, but will look for his story as I read.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

I think that for so many people there are really two huge reasons people want to believe in god.

 

1) That there is someone "bigger" than them in control - it is god's will or god never gives you anything you can't handle. He will take care of us.

 

I saw this a lot with new adult converts. Most of them had come from a terrible home life, were former drug addicts, alcoholics, abusers, abused, etc. They really wanted to believe that there was someone who cared and loved them. It didn't matter if god was true or not. It was a comfort thing.

 

2) Who wouldn't LOVE the idea that we will live forever with our loved ones?

 

Although I remember that every time people at church would ask someone about what heaven would be like - will we know our spouse and children, parents, etc. - the person would say that we wouldn't really know our spouses, children, etc. I used to think then who the hell wants to go to heaven? The only reason I would want to live forever is to be with the people I love.

 

Thanks for the insight. I see how both would have appeal.

 

Right now, #1 is most intriguing to me, personally, but I see how #2 would have tremendous power over people.

 

Thanks.

 

Phanta

[HappyChef]

"I guess I'm curious if anyone has identified any thoughts that were uncomfortable for them to think through or senses of lack in their lives that was somehow fulfilled or eased in a specific way by believing in a God who could either be responsible for that difficult thought/belief (say an aversion to homosexuality that one doesn't want to own) or be the perfect parent/caretaker...that kind of thing."

 

Near the beginning of my Paramedic career I was forced to triage between 6 patients in a limited resource MVA.1 Medic and 2 basics with BLS supplies. As a result 2 died,even though had I the resources there would have beed no deaths.

 

Being the fundie I was at the time I hid behind the "It was GOD's will" rationalization.

Making a decision that kills brings a guilt and sense of failure like no other.At the time it was very necessary for me to have that "Father knows best" crutch.

 

Wow. That is a very intense example.

 

How would you cope, psychologically, with the same situation now, as an unbeliever?

 

Phanta

 

I know now that tough decisions MUST be made to give the best outcome to the most number of people.Science and medicine are what solve the questioning of one's actions. Not all situations end badly for everyone involved.

 

Being in the position to effect a positive change in the life of another human being IS a power we ALL have.The "hand of god" or the "will of god" are really the compassion and actions of decent human beings to one another. The self degradation platform of xianity projects success or failure into a make believe entity,that crap is the "power" of their "god".

 

Knowing this removes the guilt and I'm,in the end, just greatful for the opportunity to make a positive impact.

[Phanta]

"I guess I'm curious if anyone has identified any thoughts that were uncomfortable for them to think through or senses of lack in their lives that was somehow fulfilled or eased in a specific way by believing in a God who could either be responsible for that difficult thought/belief (say an aversion to homosexuality that one doesn't want to own) or be the perfect parent/caretaker...that kind of thing."

 

Near the beginning of my Paramedic career I was forced to triage between 6 patients in a limited resource MVA.1 Medic and 2 basics with BLS supplies. As a result 2 died,even though had I the resources there would have beed no deaths.

 

Being the fundie I was at the time I hid behind the "It was GOD's will" rationalization.

Making a decision that kills brings a guilt and sense of failure like no other.At the time it was very necessary for me to have that "Father knows best" crutch.

 

Wow. That is a very intense example.

 

How would you cope, psychologically, with the same situation now, as an unbeliever?

 

Phanta

 

I know now that tough decisions MUST be made to give the best outcome to the most number of people.Science and medicine are what solve the questioning of one's actions. Not all situations end badly for everyone involved.

 

Being in the position to effect a positive change in the life of another human being IS a power we ALL have.The "hand of god" or the "will of god" are really the compassion and actions of decent human beings to one another. The self degradation platform of xianity projects success or failure into a make believe entity,that crap is the "power" of their "god".

 

Knowing this removes the guilt and I'm,in the end, just greatful for the opportunity to make a positive impact.

 

This is a very different way of looking at the situation.

 

I will probably never have to do triage in my life, but I'm involved in training around it, and notice that it is a very hard concept for people to comprehend and then stomach, even in theory. I deeply respect the difficult mental processes that help people do triage.

 

Thanks again for sharing, and for doing what you do.

 

P

[oddbird1963]

For the purposes of the topic, it doesn't matter to me if Abraham was a real person projecting his needs, or a symbol of a people projecting their needs (which is what the real person--if he indeed existed--became anyway).

 

I see your point here and it is an interesting one.

 

Of course I think the projection phenomenon is complicated. Not only is Abraham a symbol of people projecting their needs, but I believe that Abraham is a projection of the unnamed bearers of the many patriarchal traditions and folk lore onto what a "good" or heroic patriarch would be: Cunning, shrewd in business, connected politically, ready made as a warrior, a negotiator with kings and deities to muster all the favor with governments both temporal and heavenly.

[Phanta]

For the purposes of the topic, it doesn't matter to me if Abraham was a real person projecting his needs, or a symbol of a people projecting their needs (which is what the real person--if he indeed existed--became anyway).

 

I see your point here and it is an interesting one.

 

Of course I think the projection phenomenon is complicated. Not only is Abraham a symbol of people projecting their needs, but I believe that Abraham is a projection of the unnamed bearers of the many patriarchal traditions and folk lore onto what a "good" or heroic patriarch would be: Cunning, shrewd in business, connected politically, ready made as a warrior, a negotiator with kings and deities to muster all the favor with governments both temporal and heavenly.

 

Ok, neat. I'll keep that in mind as I read the Abraham stuff.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta