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The Mechanism For Knowing God Through Christ


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Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain.

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Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain.

 

I'm not sure I understand. So you're saying that it's a communication problem what prevents us from understanding the experience of Christianity?

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*yawn* .........Wait! Did that communicate anything?

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I'm not sure I understand. So you're saying that it's a communication problem what prevents us from understanding the experience of Christianity?

 

 

Somewhat.....a communication problem based on each individual having a unique experience...regardless. But it's our choice in a method (love or grace, or just plain obedience to choose those, whether we want to or not), that enables the other person in the conversation to "know" in the sense of knowlegde and "know" in the sense of experience......to be accepted/validated in those realms, bringing peace.

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Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain.

 

 

.... End ... I personally believe this has been easily answered, but this post will purely get back to a discussion on what YOU believe and what I believe!

 

Neuroscience in recent years has been studying this matter of belief in depth and to me has totally satisfied MY mind on why some are able to live with belief better than others. Because of these studies I regard belief and its associated "special experiences" as PURELY a brain induced function (it has nothing to do with the heart or other such feelings which christians like to keep bringing up!)

 

Give a christian (or ANY human) a massive brain injury and see what ability he or she has left for knowing god through christ? Absolutely nothing!

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.... End ... I personally believe this has been easily answered, but this post will purely get back to a discussion on what YOU believe and what I believe!

 

Neuroscience in recent years has been studying this matter of belief in depth and to me has totally satisfied MY mind on why some are able to live with belief better than others. Because of these studies I regard belief and its associated "special experiences" as PURELY a brain induced function (it has nothing to do with the heart or other such feelings which christians like to keep bringing up!)

 

Give a christian (or ANY human) a massive brain injury and see what ability he or she has left for knowing god through christ? Absolutely nothing!

 

Was talking about adherence to the mechanism Realist....not special circumstances. I would ask that you consider it and refute it....I mean, attempt to refute it :grin:, if you have time.

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End, sometimes it seems like you are writing in a code I can't understand. You seem to be equating grace and love with Christ. If you want to use the word Christ for grace and love, that's ok, but you have to recognize many of us here do not think in those terms and would not use that word "Christ" to represent grace and love.

 

I think you really need to define your terms in your OP in order to get the meaning across. Terms such as "Christ", "the mechanism", "Holy Spirit". We do often suffer from miscommunication because we attach different meanings to words such as these. Please rephrase and put this in simple language.

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people are at different stages of understanding

This statement posits that there (1) is something to understand, and (2) there is a linear progression toward the ultimate understanding of it. The phrase is so frequently tossed around and it's a pet peeve, if you would indulge me.

 

The inference is that those who don't see reality as you do simply have not progressed far enough yet. It is not only Christians who have this mindset but any "spiritual" type who thinks he has some special, supernatural understanding of the universe. The assumption being made is that something invisible and undetectable exists in a realm beyond the understanding of our poor, unwashed selves.

 

Well, I used to think I understood God's plan as given in the Bible. At other times I thought I had outgrown mere Christianity and understood, or at least recognized, the larger spiritual nature of the universe. I thought that perhaps some rare wisdom really had been revealed to certain highly evolved people - masters, adepts, shamans, prophets, they like to call them. As with Christianity, more study, observation and reasoning knocked down those delusions as well.

 

We are born without religion or god concepts. Maybe the full circle of honest investigation ultimately returns us to our starting point. That would put me farther along the path than you!

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And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

Surely you mean helps guide YOU?

 

That is your belief for YOU, but you can't possibly apply that belief to those who don't believe that there is a "holy spirit".

 

You also have no evidence whatsover that the "holy spirit" guides you; it's just in your mind, your belief.

 

I believe that experience, commonsense, knowledge, respect, empathy, reason and intelligence facilitate communication. Not a "holy spirit" for which there is no evidence of existence.

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This statement posits that there (1) is something to understand, and (2) there is a linear progression toward the ultimate understanding of it. The phrase is so frequently tossed around and it's a pet peeve, if you would indulge me.

From a Christian standpoint,"it" being God, Christ, God the Father. From a non-believer standpoint, "it" being a progression of maturity utilizing love and grace to produce societal wellbeing. An interesting example, that may not hold true, would be, nature.....that each entity is able to exist, yet give room for the thing next to it in a relationship. Competition, yet symbiotic......(lights reefer here)....lol.

 

The inference is that those who don't see reality as you do simply have not progressed far enough yet. It is not only Christians who have this mindset but any "spiritual" type who thinks he has some special, supernatural understanding of the universe. The assumption being made is that something invisible and undetectable exists in a realm beyond the understanding of our poor, unwashed selves.

 

Right, and that is one really good point....it is seemingly common to us all, and accessible by all, but placing cause is the contention. Maybe that is what Jesus got so angry about.

 

Well, I used to think I understood God's plan as given in the Bible. At other times I thought I had outgrown mere Christianity and understood, or at least recognized, the larger spiritual nature of the universe. I thought that perhaps some rare wisdom really had been revealed to certain highly evolved people - masters, adepts, shamans, prophets, they like to call them. As with Christianity, more study, observation and reasoning knocked down those delusions as well.

 

That's fine....it is new to me today. And this is a perfect example of what I am describing. That you in your understanding have the choice to transcend our understandings through grace and love towards me, if not by your heart, then obedience to the method. And I think that is what Christ calls us to, or whatever.....that it takes effort and sometimes hurts for you to accept my "error".....and the reverse being true....the suffering being equated to "die to self", baptism, etc.

 

We are born without religion or god concepts. Maybe the full circle of honest investigation ultimately returns us to our starting point. That would put me farther along the path than you!

 

Very likely.

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And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

Surely you mean helps guide YOU?

 

That is your belief for YOU, but you can't possibly apply that belief to those who don't believe that there is a "holy spirit".

 

You also have no evidence whatsover that the "holy spirit" guides you; it's just in your mind, your belief.

 

I believe that experience, commonsense, knowledge, respect, empathy, reason and intelligence facilitate communication. Not a "holy spirit" for which there is no evidence of existence.

 

I think dog, that the experience is the same, but the wording different within Christianity. And you are right, deciding the cause is still an isssue.

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Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain.

 

What I know from this post is that you do not know how to define a concept,nor dsitinguish a "personal experience" from fact.

Just another example of xian circular logic and shell game confusion stated as some kind of fact. The fairy tale seems to be fact if twisted and shaded into ambiguity. Garbage brought into the sunshine stinks sooner!

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Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain.

 

What I know from this post is that you do not know how to define a concept,nor dsitinguish a "personal experience" from fact.

Just another example of xian circular logic and shell game confusion stated as some kind of fact. The fairy tale seems to be fact if twisted and shaded into ambiguity. Garbage brought into the sunshine stinks sooner!

 

Prove what you just stated....I will consider your statement when you achieve such.

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Hi, Ed. I posted those links to you, but something in your post caught my eye, and I decided to come back to it again, reading more carefully. I'm responding in a different vein, now.

 

Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

I agree with your first sentence as it applies to individuals...thinking of the deep knowing that comes via being in an actual situation.

 

I also personally find disunity a painful reality, especially between myself and certain individuals, but also in the sense of feeling at odds with very different cultures. Miscommunication is just one small part of the issue. As you suggest, I agree a difficulty in identifying with the other is often a huge problem. Deep identification with the other, I think, minimizes discord because it gets to the core of a disagreement, but even with identification and good communication, there are disagreements, and some of those disagreements may still cause harm and discord, especially when power over another is involved. Does that make sense?

 

So, while what you have written isn't the end all and be all of disunity and discord, I agree with what you've written.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

I think that what you're saying here is that you think the Bible provides for us a model to bridge our differences. As the divide between God and human is bridged through grace, love, and obedience, so might the bridge between human and human be bridged through grace, love, and obedience. I'm not sure what "simultaneously validate the mechanism" means, though.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

Seek first to understand, then to be understood. Right? People who feel understood experience some level of validation. Validation between people helps bridge the chasm.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

Someone who is less able to respond to difficulty with grace and love, or to be in another's shoes, is at a different level of tolerance on that subject or in that relationship (I caution against seeing the person as a being at a certain stage so much as where they are on a particular issue, or in a particular dynamic, as some people are highly empathic on some issues and wounded on others...just a thought!). Rather than responding in kind, the other member of the difficult dynamic may have the skills to diffuse, accepting their partner's current state with compassion.

 

I am familiar with the words of Jesus on the cross and turn the other cheek (not in context though), but I hear that this compassion for those from whom you feel rejection or hostility is a big focus for you right now. I also now know why we remain in discussion. We have a common goal in mind, and in this moment, I am grateful that you are who you are, and that you have remained willing to do this work with me. I need it, too. (But invoking inspiration that speaks to me, mind you.)

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

Again, I don't know the verse, and I haven't a God, but in the sense that I have a code...I don't know, Ed...it's a beautiful, idealistic thought, anyway. I'll give you that. I think that this does work for some people. I also think it goes beyond miscommunication. Miscommunication is one contributor to the broken relationship. Just one. (My opinion).

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

Yes, I agree, as you identify more than just miscommunication as a problem. Experience, yes. BUT, I don't think the process is linear. It's just a different path, a different experience...in many cases, anyway. Maybe some aspects are following some linear development...but I think that's tough to pinpoint. I'd like to think more about that...maybe discuss further.

 

Regarding "there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification" I want to say two things. One, this general idea is heading in a general direction of some beautiful wisdom. If someone is deep in their current place, we don't have the power to change that through continuing to aggravate them, but we might maintain some kind of connection with them through letting go of that particular area of connection (the aggravating one) and continuing to love in other areas.

 

Because the brokenness is still there...the would is still there; the unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification is already "produced"...but what you are speaking of is not aggravating that. Avoiding whatever topic or situation aggravates the unknowing/disunity/lack of identification that is in place until such a time as the other person shifts. And that time may or may not ever come. I would also suggest that sometimes we might let go, in love. Sometimes there is no connection possible that does not aggravate, does not suck us dry.

 

In Christian theology, I often hear that God wants us, but does not want us by force, so God will let us go if that is where we are right now. Personally, when I hear about Hell as punishment, that is not letting go with love.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

You got 'em!

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain

 

I really enjoyed this post. It's something, as you know, that is on my mind these days. I, like you, am still struggling to figure out how to deal with painful personal separations. I appreciate the conversation.

 

Phanta

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Hi, Ed. I posted those links to you, but something in your post caught my eye, and I decided to come back to it again, reading more carefully. I'm responding in a different vein, now.

 

Per some recent conversations here, the idea that we "know" something seems very much related to personal experience. It seems as though major grief occurs when we are unable to bridge the gap of experience to mutually share our identities and experiences, and in so, find unity, acceptance, and peace with someone else. Often times we suffer at the hands of miscommunication, because neither party can adaquately identify with the other.

 

I agree with your first sentence as it applies to individuals...thinking of the deep knowing that comes via being in an actual situation.

 

I also personally find disunity a painful reality, especially between myself and certain individuals, but also in the sense of feeling at odds with very different cultures. Miscommunication is just one small part of the issue. As you suggest, I agree a difficulty in identifying with the other is often a huge problem. Deep identification with the other, I think, minimizes discord because it gets to the core of a disagreement, but even with identification and good communication, there are disagreements, and some of those disagreements may still cause harm and discord, especially when power over another is involved. Does that make sense?

 

So, while what you have written isn't the end all and be all of disunity and discord, I agree with what you've written.

 

Per my limited knowledge of the mechanism that is the Covenant between Christ and man, and is also the mechanism to know Jesus and God the Father, the Bible mentions grace, love, obedience, etc. as part of this mechanism. I believe these two aforementioned statements join together to yield the experiential truth that we live and share every day......that there is suffering inherent with miscommunication and that through the prescribed mechanism, we can nullify the suffering and simultaneously validate the mechanism.

 

I think that what you're saying here is that you think the Bible provides for us a model to bridge our differences. As the divide between God and human is bridged through grace, love, and obedience, so might the bridge between human and human be bridged through grace, love, and obedience. I'm not sure what "simultaneously validate the mechanism" means, though.

 

For example, by choosing grace or love, and sometimes only by obedience to the mechanism, for another during a difficult conversation, perhaps generated by varied experience, the other party feels validation and peace knowing they were "known" by another and "know" what they have experienced.

 

Seek first to understand, then to be understood. Right? People who feel understood experience some level of validation. Validation between people helps bridge the chasm.

 

There are numerous mentions of suffering, ie "turn the other cheek", to fulfill what I would gather as the developmental stages, or path, of your neighbor......in grace and love. As evidenced by, as Jesus states on the Cross, "Forgive them Father...they know not"...paraphrasing.

 

Someone who is less able to respond to difficulty with grace and love, or to be in another's shoes, is at a different level of tolerance on that subject or in that relationship (I caution against seeing the person as a being at a certain stage so much as where they are on a particular issue, or in a particular dynamic, as some people are highly empathic on some issues and wounded on others...just a thought!). Rather than responding in kind, the other member of the difficult dynamic may have the skills to diffuse, accepting their partner's current state with compassion.

 

I am familiar with the words of Jesus on the cross and turn the other cheek (not in context though), but I hear that this compassion for those from whom you feel rejection or hostility is a big focus for you right now. I also now know why we remain in discussion. We have a common goal in mind, and in this moment, I am grateful that you are who you are, and that you have remained willing to do this work with me. I need it, too. (But invoking inspiration that speaks to me, mind you.)

 

But here's the thing. I think we can all identify with the suffering of miscommunication, and this is why I believe that this mechanism is true and valid....that through it, we may yield knowing God for ourselves and for our neighbors in one fell swoop......that Love and Grace transcend the levels, the gaps....."that love never fails", as it says in 1Cor 13.

 

Again, I don't know the verse, and I haven't a God, but in the sense that I have a code...I don't know, Ed...it's a beautiful, idealistic thought, anyway. I'll give you that. I think that this does work for some people. I also think it goes beyond miscommunication. Miscommunication is one contributor to the broken relationship. Just one. (My opinion).

 

And that sometimes, regardless of how well we communicate, people are at different stages of understanding and there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification. And I believe that the Holy Spirit helps guide us in wisdom to facilitate the communication where there will be knowing, unity, and identification.

 

Yes, I agree, as you identify more than just miscommunication as a problem. Experience, yes. BUT, I don't think the process is linear. It's just a different path, a different experience...in many cases, anyway. Maybe some aspects are following some linear development...but I think that's tough to pinpoint. I'd like to think more about that...maybe discuss further.

 

Regarding "there is really not much they or we can do other than to let their experience go on, and to choose love during these times to transcend the gaps of communication and NOT produce a communication of unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification" I want to say two things. One, this general idea is heading in a general direction of some beautiful wisdom. If someone is deep in their current place, we don't have the power to change that through continuing to aggravate them, but we might maintain some kind of connection with them through letting go of that particular area of connection (the aggravating one) and continuing to love in other areas.

 

Because the brokenness is still there...the would is still there; the unknowing, disunity, and lack of identification is already "produced"...but what you are speaking of is not aggravating that. Avoiding whatever topic or situation aggravates the unknowing/disunity/lack of identification that is in place until such a time as the other person shifts. And that time may or may not ever come. I would also suggest that sometimes we might let go, in love. Sometimes there is no connection possible that does not aggravate, does not suck us dry.

 

In Christian theology, I often hear that God wants us, but does not want us by force, so God will let us go if that is where we are right now. Personally, when I hear about Hell as punishment, that is not letting go with love.

 

OK, that's it...any thoughts?

 

You got 'em!

 

My apologies for the rambling....just was trying to get the relationships written down before they left my brain

 

I really enjoyed this post. It's something, as you know, that is on my mind these days. I, like you, am still struggling to figure out how to deal with painful personal separations. I appreciate the conversation.

 

Phanta

 

Thank you P. Thank you for taking the time to consider it and comment. I was blessed by your interpretation. There are many nuances, but I believe in the general method (that I were able to accomplish it). I believe that some of the contradictions many mention in the bible are due to the "wisdom" that is needed to express the same will within different situations. That to express love, grace, etc., we often times have to be less rule oriented to show that that person is "known" within their current experiential context. I don't think that a condescending position as we are all in need of being known. And the hard part.....not so much bridging the gaps with love and grace, are those times when we are just unable to bring ourselves to that place. This to me is where "obedience" to the "method" is needed.....to just be polite would be a good word. In that, we suffer for the sake of our neighbor.

 

There are just so many words that are used in Christianity to describe this but are really today, IMO, taken as something a little differently by the church. I may be wrong.

 

AM has always discussed God being available to anyone at any time. I am starting to believe that, in that we are able to step into God by doing this very thing. It's like a doorway that we can step through by choosing and residing in this method. I am very much convinced that Christianity equates the Door to Christ, the suffering to the Cross, the Holy Spirit to our developing intuition and wisdom to know when and what to say to facilitate the healthy bridging between people by different experiences.

 

Jesus talks about eternal life being One with Jesus as He is One with the Father and to know them both as we are known by them. I don't know that we can get much closer to "god" on this earth than achieving this same relationship with our neighbors. Just a thought.

 

Thank you again for the extra effort and post. You are a light.

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Whatever you claim to know that nobody else knows, could possibly be your mind playing tricks on you. The mind has a funny way of doing that A LOT. The mind might even be more powerful than we realize but the explanations for that power will be shown to have a natural explanation given enough time. But here is the real reason you don't hold your faith in the spotlight, because you're comfortable and you don't want to believe you've spent all this time believing in something that isn't true, you couldn't bare it. You're also comfortable with the idea that if you stay in this faith that you can't go to hell if there is one.(which there isn't)

 

Of course you don't have to take my word for it, just read the stories of all the ex-xtians on here that were in your same position, and are around or above your same age.

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End's talking about the human need in genuinely connected interactions to be known in the sense of feeling empathized with...understood...witnessed...heard...recognized as being in a valid current state or thinking/feeling. Feeling "known" to another.

 

Ed, we seem to be catching the tails of a common ribbon. Your latest communication is soaking in the brain a bit before I reply.

 

P

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G'day, End.

 

Thank you P. Thank you for taking the time to consider it and comment. I was blessed by your interpretation.

 

You're welcome, Ed.

 

There are many nuances, but I believe in the general method (that I were able to accomplish it). I believe that some of the contradictions many mention in the bible are due to the "wisdom" that is needed to express the same will within different situations. That to express love, grace, etc., we often times have to be less rule oriented to show that that person is "known" within their current experiential context.

 

Contradictions do crop up if we wish to respond effectively to different situations/experiential contexts, as well as flexibility. Surely there is no one answer for everyone. You wrote, "the 'wisdom' that is needed to express the same will within different situations". Is the "will" you're speaking of the will to unity/reconciliation (with God, other humans, etc.)?

 

I don't think that a condescending position as we are all in need of being known.

 

The position that one must exist from their current experiential context is, absolutely, not a condescending position. It just is...right? Here is where you are. Here is where I am. We can't be in any other state. Buddhist nun Pema Chodron gently urges those who come to her for help, "start where you are." It is obvious, but it is not always how we as people expect ourselves and others to operate.

 

So, when do people feel that they are being condescended to?

 

It's usually in the delivery or in the mentality. Delivery is tone. Mentality is that they are at a certain place in a linear path. I often ascribe to this mentality, but the older I get, the less sure I am of it. For instance, consider the spiritual nature of a human. Sometimes I see an atheist turning more spiritual, and I see a maturing in that process. Sometimes I see a hardcore religionist becoming an atheist, and I see steps of maturity in the process. When I am in a place where I see people more in their complexity, it is hard to see religion as evil and no religion as good or vice-versa. It seems, to me, it is a lot more complicated than that.

 

And the hard part.....not so much bridging the gaps with love and grace, are those times when we are just unable to bring ourselves to that place. This to me is where "obedience" to the "method" is needed.....to just be polite would be a good word. In that, we suffer for the sake of our neighbor.

 

Being polite is often a good response. In my view, sometimes so is stepping away from the person (ending the conversation or even the relationship). Suffering in itself does not heal a relationship, but is a side effect of tolerating a burden. It is at our own expense to do this, and something must be refilling our emotional bank account if we are to continue to shoulder that burden...if it is to be considered worthwhile. For you, your internal experience of Christ seems to refill your emotional bank account, yes? And sometimes, you don't have the fuel you need, and you fail.

 

We are limited beings.

 

There are just so many words that are used in Christianity to describe this but are really today, IMO, taken as something a little differently by the church. I may be wrong.

 

Maybe...or maybe you're on to one of these universal threads of connecting in to a source outside yourself to refill that emotional bank account and carry you through tough times. This is, from what I understand, a inter-religion theme.

 

For me, the closest I get to "the source", if there is such a thing, is other people. My community. They are, in a sense, my God. Perhaps there is another source...a Source, if you will, by which they are more directly refilled, and so I get filled secondhand by them. So far, this is the only way I know how to "plug in", and perhaps this is the way for me. (Perhaps it is actually the way everyone is plugging in, just misidentifying it as another separate powerful being-- how the heck do i know???)

 

AM has always discussed God being available to anyone at any time. I am starting to believe that, in that we are able to step into God by doing this very thing. It's like a doorway that we can step through by choosing and residing in this method.

 

That is a very cool idea to me (in the abstract). I don't know that I believe in the one method...I think there are responses for different situations that build toward the same goal of reconciliation (which, in my view, begins with empathy--a.k.a. creating in the other a sense of being known.).

 

I have a lot of growth to do in this area, but I find it to be really interesting and, so far, just really successful the better I get at it.

 

I am very much convinced that Christianity equates the Door to Christ, the suffering to the Cross, the Holy Spirit to our developing intuition and wisdom to know when and what to say to facilitate the healthy bridging between people by different experiences.

 

That's not really a metaphor I can get my head completely around understanding at my level of knowing about trinity theology. I recognize the importance of intuition and wisdom in navigating the complexity of reality, though.

 

Jesus talks about eternal life being One with Jesus as He is One with the Father and to know them both as we are known by them. I don't know that we can get much closer to "god" on this earth than achieving this same relationship with our neighbors. Just a thought.

 

Again, the theology is not really for me in this place I'm in, but I see the intent and goal to love your neighbors while acknowledging their differences. It's a good goal. It's one we share! :)

 

Thank you again for the extra effort and post. You are a light.

 

Again, you are welcome. I'm enjoying the conversation.

 

Phanta

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Contradictions do crop up if we wish to respond effectively to different situations/experiential contexts, as well as flexibility. Surely there is no one answer for everyone. You wrote, "the 'wisdom' that is needed to express the same will within different situations". Is the "will" you're speaking of the will to unity/reconciliation (with God, other humans, etc.)?

I think so P....ultimately the manifestation of knowing Love or God through our actions via faith in Christ and his demonstration of that.

 

The position that one must exist from their current experiential context is, absolutely, not a condescending position. It just is...right? Here is where you are. Here is where I am. We can't be in any other state. Buddhist nun Pema Chodron gently urges those who come to her for help, "start where you are." It is obvious, but it is not always how we as people expect ourselves and others to operate.

 

So, when do people feel that they are being condescended to?

 

Excellent point. Yes, I think we are all in a place, and sometimes even though you may think you are making near perfect sense to someone else, they just don't seem to pick up on the theme. It is then, that if you are not careful, that it can come across as condescending. And to my knowledge, it is that wisdom, utilizing love and grace as the tools to structure your communication, that makes it infallible if don't correctly.

 

It's usually in the delivery or in the mentality. Delivery is tone. Mentality is that they are at a certain place in a linear path. I often ascribe to this mentality, but the older I get, the less sure I am of it. For instance, consider the spiritual nature of a human. Sometimes I see an atheist turning more spiritual, and I see a maturing in that process. Sometimes I see a hardcore religionist becoming an atheist, and I see steps of maturity in the process. When I am in a place where I see people more in their complexity, it is hard to see religion as evil and no religion as good or vice-versa. It seems, to me, it is a lot more complicated than that.

 

Yeah, it is hard to deny any of it as other than necessary as a means to an end. I think the practise of the New Covenant basically removes labels. Is salvation learning to communicate without error so that people are known and know God in the process? It's new to me....just speculating.

 

Being polite is often a good response. In my view, sometimes so is stepping away from the person (ending the conversation or even the relationship). Suffering in itself does not heal a relationship, but is a side effect of tolerating a burden. It is at our own expense to do this, and something must be refilling our emotional bank account if we are to continue to shoulder that burden...if it is to be considered worthwhile. For you, your internal experience of Christ seems to refill your emotional bank account, yes? And sometimes, you don't have the fuel you need, and you fail.

 

Yes, exactly, but Christians remain faithful that their sufficiency doesn't lie in their works, but in grace of Christ.

 

For me, the closest I get to "the source", if there is such a thing, is other people. My community. They are, in a sense, my God. Perhaps there is another source...a Source, if you will, by which they are more directly refilled, and so I get filled secondhand by them. So far, this is the only way I know how to "plug in", and perhaps this is the way for me. (Perhaps it is actually the way everyone is plugging in, just misidentifying it as another separate powerful being-- how the heck do i know???)

 

That's a valid point. Christ at this point would be the Holy Spirit acting through people....so yes, even within Christianity, it's the people. I do hold a place for God acting sovereignly on a person.

 

That is a very cool idea to me (in the abstract). I don't know that I believe in the one method...I think there are responses for different situations that build toward the same goal of reconciliation (which, in my view, begins with empathy--a.k.a. creating in the other a sense of being known.).

 

I have a lot of growth to do in this area, but I find it to be really interesting and, so far, just really successful the better I get at it.

 

Yeah, the kicker is that Christians believe the author of the method is specific.

 

good thoughts P.

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Contradictions do crop up if we wish to respond effectively to different situations/experiential contexts, as well as flexibility. Surely there is no one answer for everyone. You wrote, "the 'wisdom' that is needed to express the same will within different situations". Is the "will" you're speaking of the will to unity/reconciliation (with God, other humans, etc.)?

 

I think so P....ultimately the manifestation of knowing Love or God through our actions via faith in Christ and his demonstration of that.

 

I think you're saying your are learning by example, which makes sense to me regardless of whether the model is real or metaphorical. Fine.

 

Yes, I think we are all in a place, and sometimes even though you may think you are making near perfect sense to someone else, they just don't seem to pick up on the theme. It is then, that if you are not careful, that it can come across as condescending. And to my knowledge, it is that wisdom, utilizing love and grace as the tools to structure your communication, that makes it infallible if don't correctly.

 

How can you know that it is not you who is missing a more dominant or pressing theme? The only thing you know is what is important to Ed in Ed's life. The other person generally knows their situation better than you know their situation. One aspect of their experience may look familiar to you, but the way it interacts with other aspects of their character and life experience means that what you find important to you in that same basic situation may be different than what they find important--what they need-- even in core ways. That is for them to judge.

 

Love and grace are important in communication, for sure. Love and grace for ourselves, as well.

 

It's usually in the delivery or in the mentality. Delivery is tone. Mentality is that they are at a certain place in a linear path. I often ascribe to this mentality, but the older I get, the less sure I am of it. For instance, consider the spiritual nature of a human. Sometimes I see an atheist turning more spiritual, and I see a maturing in that process. Sometimes I see a hardcore religionist becoming an atheist, and I see steps of maturity in the process. When I am in a place where I see people more in their complexity, it is hard to see religion as evil and no religion as good or vice-versa. It seems, to me, it is a lot more complicated than that.

 

Yeah, it is hard to deny any of it as other than necessary as a means to an end. I think the practise of the New Covenant basically removes labels. Is salvation learning to communicate without error so that people are known and know God in the process? It's new to me....just speculating.

 

Well...maybe it removes labels from those who are practicing. I don't know. But heathens and unbelievers certainly remain labeled.

 

I don't know about your second idea. It's a nice idea in concept, even for someone like me who doesn't even remotely share your God-concept.

 

Being polite is often a good response. In my view, sometimes so is stepping away from the person (ending the conversation or even the relationship). Suffering in itself does not heal a relationship, but is a side effect of tolerating a burden. It is at our own expense to do this, and something must be refilling our emotional bank account if we are to continue to shoulder that burden...if it is to be considered worthwhile. For you, your internal experience of Christ seems to refill your emotional bank account, yes? And sometimes, you don't have the fuel you need, and you fail.

 

Yes, exactly, but Christians remain faithful that their sufficiency doesn't lie in their works, but in grace of Christ.

 

Your statement suggests you didn't get what I was saying. I was referring to how human beings actually function without burning out. Even the faithful need a day of rest and worship...to "plug in" to something that refills their energy source.

 

My sense is that Christians do everything and don't do everything possible for humans to do or not do in this world, including having faith that their sufficiency lies in their works.

 

Just sayin'.

 

For me, the closest I get to "the source", if there is such a thing, is other people. My community. They are, in a sense, my God. Perhaps there is another source...a Source, if you will, by which they are more directly refilled, and so I get filled secondhand by them. So far, this is the only way I know how to "plug in", and perhaps this is the way for me. (Perhaps it is actually the way everyone is plugging in, just misidentifying it as another separate powerful being-- how the heck do i know???)

 

That's a valid point. Christ at this point would be the Holy Spirit acting through people....so yes, even within Christianity, it's the people. I do hold a place for God acting sovereignly on a person.

 

It sounds similar. I can't speak personally about God acting in sovereignty on an individual. I don't have any personal sense of that. I can only take other people's words that, in solitude, some individuals have strange experiences that fill them up, recharge their will and spirit.

 

Yeah, the kicker is that Christians believe the author of the method is specific.

 

Yep. That seems important to most people. I don't know why people need such exclusivity... But thinking on it, it is easy to go to that place of "bad for me, so bad for everyone". It seems to be a human thing, and conservative religion a real shelter for those in need. The trend toward that fallacy is also something that can soften as teens grow into adults and really refine their sense of empathy, but it takes a lot of intentional work in my experience.

 

I, personally, get the need. I fall into that trip constantly! I want to much to feel justified... But, in the end, I simply don't. I know I am full of shit. I certainly don't worship it. But I'm not interested in investing myself in groups that do. That isn't for my life. It isn't the kind of world I want to live in, and so I strive to live the world I want to live in.

 

Phanta

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I think you're saying your are learning by example, which makes sense to me regardless of whether the model is real or metaphorical. Fine.

 

I think the thing that jumps out at me if I feel that I am with God is the learning to consider empathy as my primary thought(s), with regard to considering a situation. That feeling is not always present for me.

 

How can you know that it is not you who is missing a more dominant or pressing theme? The only thing you know is what is important to Ed in Ed's life. The other person generally knows their situation better than you know their situation. One aspect of their experience may look familiar to you, but the way it interacts with other aspects of their character and life experience means that what you find important to you in that same basic situation may be different than what they find important--what they need-- even in core ways. That is for them to judge.

 

Excellent point. Yeah, we do not know....but within the "mechanism", I don't think that it matters, but becomes much more of a Manifestation of "learning/knowing" when more than just one side recognizes the process.

 

Well...maybe it removes labels from those who are practicing. I don't know. But heathens and unbelievers certainly remain labeled.

Yes, that's right, but over time, I think the thing is to recognize people as we did as children.....humans.

 

Your statement suggests you didn't get what I was saying. I was referring to how human beings actually function without burning out. Even the faithful need a day of rest and worship...to "plug in" to something that refills their energy source.

 

Christ would retreat, we must retreat on occasion....and sometimes, you just have to let someone be, because of them being in a drastically different place of experience. Large leaps are few and far between I would bet.

 

My sense is that Christians do everything and don't do everything possible for humans to do or not do in this world, including having faith that their sufficiency lies in their works.

 

Oh yeah. I was looking at a Christian forum the other day. They were discussing transformation as BAM, you are now in perfect mode. I don't see that at all, nor have I experienced that for myself. "Glory to glory" would be a Christian-eze term for the stairstepping nature of revelation....or just simply maturing. The difference is, IMO, that the Bible and Spirit work together to give people unexpected jumps of understanding.....in conjuction most likely with God's will for them. That would be definately an IMO.

 

I, personally, get the need. I fall into that trip constantly! I want to much to feel justified... But, in the end, I simply don't. I know I am full of shit. I certainly don't worship it. But I'm not interested in investing myself in groups that do. That isn't for my life. It isn't the kind of world I want to live in, and so I strive to live the world I want to live in.

 

Good thought. I think the validation is an intial step in the process P. It takes someone else's suffering if you will, to stand us back up as people.....then giving us the freedom to use our gifts to then stand someone else up as we mature. I see you as a stubborn flower that was knocked down a few times, but keeps standing her ownself up. :)

 

Edit: fwiw....have you noticed how many conversations you witness don't get this concept we have been discussing and literally don't see it, because they are just unable to from being in a different place?

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Edit: fwiw....have you noticed how many conversations you witness don't get this concept we have been discussing and literally don't see it, because they are just unable to from being in a different place?

Or it's reversed.

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Edit: fwiw....have you noticed how many conversations you witness don't get this concept we have been discussing and literally don't see it, because they are just unable to from being in a different place?

Or it's reversed.

 

Most certainly.

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Most certainly.

Good. Then we both know that a lot of our miscommunication can basically be blamed on the constricts of language. It's unfortunate, but true.

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