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I Need Some "stoppers"


L.B.
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Many of you know I am married to a "true believer" who evades every rational argument against Xtianity

with her magic mantra:

 

"It only matters what I know in my heart. I don't care if it can't be proven or if it can be disproven.

I know what I feel in my heart and mind when I read His word and talk to Him and He talks to me."

 

There are other, MUCH sharper intellectual wits, however, that belong to her church and churches I have attended

in the past. They like to think they are more than a match for anyone because they have read Strobel, McDowell

and Charles Stanley books. Some even read James White.

 

I need the kinds of questions, statements or facts that bring these stupid, pointless conversations about Casper

to a halt. I won't be using them on "friends" or immediate acquaintances that we see often, but I will need to

use things like this when the neighborhood-knockers (JW, Mormon, the odd "on fire" Jebus-nut) come around.

 

Your input is greatly appreciated.

 

Namaste,

 

L.B.

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Maybe some of these will help...

 

1. Problem of Evil. If god is all good and all powerful, why does evil exist? For example, why are innocent children sexually abused? Supposedly god could stop it and wants to stop it, yet that behavior goes on every day around the world. God is supposedly our loving parent, yet what earthly parent would allow their children to be sexually abused if they could stop it?

 

2. Why do sincere christians pray for guidance and get conflicting answers about important topics? For example, millions of honest and sincere Church of Christ christians ask god for guidance and he has told them that you must be baptized to be saved. Millions of other honest, sincere christians have asked god the same questions and are being told you don't have to be baptized to be saved. How is that possible if there truly is a god?

 

3. Why does prayer only seem to work for things that could happen naturally? For example, people pray for healing of sick people. However, the only healing that occurs is via doctors or the body fixing itself. Why is there NEVER a case where an amputee is prayed for and his missing leg instantly re-appears?

 

4. For those who claim the bible is inerrant: There are hundreds of contradictions and failed prophecies. For a big contradiction, try to synchronize the crucifiction/resurrection accounts in all four gospels - it can't be done. For failed prophecies, one of my favorites is the prophecy of the eternal destruction of the city of Tyre. In part it reads...

 

Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD: See, I am against you, O Tyre! I will hurl many nations against you, as the sea hurls its waves. They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down its towers. I will scrape its soil from it and make it a bare rock. It shall become, in the midst of the sea, a place for spreading nets. .... You shall never again be rebuilt, for I Yahweh have spoken, says the Lord GOD (Ezek. 26:1-14, NRSV with Yahweh substituted for the LORD).

 

Here's a picture of modern Tyre in Lebanon (population 117,000). Not bad for a place that shall be scraped bare and never rebuilt...

tyre_today_satellite.jpg

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I like Matt Dilahunty's approach the best:

 

What evidence can you offer that would lead to the conclusion that god exists?

What evidence can you offer that would lead to the conclusion that the claims of the bible, as you interpret them, are true?

 

If they cannot offer verifiable evidence, then ask them "Why should I believe anything you say over and against what an advocate for another religion would say?"

 

Charles Stanley never struck me as much of an apologist. He just interprets the bible and makes all sorts of claims about what god will do and what the nature of things is. Is really is "Life according to Charles." He's basically an arrogant buffoon, in my book.

 

I always found his sermons uninsightful and boring. His books struck me as pretty much the same.

 

 

There are plenty of websites (Infidels.org, I think, is one of them) that blow holes in both Stobel and McDowell. I don't know who John White is.

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The words "prove it" sets the door knockers in a frenzy of fumble-mouthed stutters.

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I loved James White. I read most of his books and watched a bunch of his debates.

 

You will have 2 kinds of people as you have already mentioned. Ones that have a facade of rational arguments for faith and ones that don't have a facade.

 

For those who don't and use arguments like "I feel his presence and no argument can take that away" I generally ask what about a Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim? What if they say they feel their God's presence, does that mean their God exists? I had Mormon friends who said they knew the "prophet" Joseph Smith was true and so too his new additions to the Bible because of the feeling in their hearts. When I asked them the above question they stammered and just repeated it like some sort of mantra, as if by repeating it they will win the argument.

 

I've gotta jet but I'll add other arguments I've used when I get back tonight. I also gotta say TexasFreethinker's post regarding Tyre would have fucking annihilated me as a Christian (I considered myself an apologist).

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This is a subject that has been very interesting since my deconversion. Why can two people look at the same evidence and come to completely opposite conclusions?

In my experience so far, what I consider to be absolute proof that xtianity and all religions are false, barely makes the average fundy even blink! They just put all things that don't add up in the "god is SO great' cupboard and shut the door. So good luck with the apologetics.

The verse about Tyre is a good one though!

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This is a subject that has been very interesting since my deconversion. Why can two people look at the same evidence and come to completely opposite conclusions?

In my experience so far, what I consider to be absolute proof that xtianity and all religions are false, barely makes the average fundy even blink! They just put all things that don't add up in the "god is SO great' cupboard and shut the door. So good luck with the apologetics.

The verse about Tyre is a good one though!

 

I have been struggling with that very same thing. I deconverted several months ago and have recently "come out" on my facebook page causing quite a stir back home at my old church. I have had some interesting conversations with people, which always seem to end the same way. They either do not try and explain my questions or they twist the bible to fit the position they already hold. My take on it is that people will view new ideas and information through glasses clouded by what they already believe. This problem isn't unique to religion(you find it often in politics too), but in religion the problem is much worse. Religion is the basis for many peoples lives. Asking them to throw off the goggles and critically look at what they believe would shake the very foundation of their lives and for most people that is just to scary and unsettling to do. That is the place my wife is caught at the moment. She admits that most of what I have shown her makes sense and that the bible probably isn't the word of god, yet she clings to the claim of christianity for the security and comfort it provides. My mom, on the other hand is still in the delusional place. She heard my explanations and reasons and all she could say is that "well only god knows".

 

For me, it was the point in my questioning when I allowed myself to question whether the bible was true or not. That is the point that I believe most christians will never cross. Up to that point, every evidence against the bible was rationalized and explained away as wrong because the bible was true and anything that goes against that must be wrong by definition. For me it was when I switched from "The bible is true, prove to me its not" to "The bible is not true, prove to me that it is". Any book that is the "word of god" must stand up to both lines of questioning and of course the bible does not even come close.

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The words "prove it" sets the door knockers in a frenzy of fumble-mouthed stutters.

And it works for all religions!

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Nothing mentioned here actually works. If they did a quick stop by the Lion's Den would demonstrate it pretty quickly.

 

Xian: Stupid argument.

Ex-C: <Show Stopper>

Xian: Shit. You're right.

end thread.

 

Instead these "show stoppers" just go on and on and on and on. Same old shit tossed around seemingly endlessly in each and every thread. Someone yells "gotcha" every so often but it's meaningless if nobody actually gets "got."

 

So good luck finding anything that's actually effective on anyone other than not bothering to begin with.

 

mwc

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Guest riverrunner

okay I don't know if this is a stopper but it should be.

 

A. science shows that the earth is not 6000 years old and we could not possibly have arisen as a species from two people. plus you can't just make a woman from a rib or a man from dirt for that matter. why do you need the rib and dirt if you have all this magic power anyway - why can't air suffice? plus snakes can't talk. plus why put a fruit tree that is forbidden there especially when you supposedly KNOW they will eat from said tree? plus how the heck can a piece of fruit suddenly make you know all this stuff? plus there is no garden guarded by a flaming sword as the bible claims. plus who did Cain marry? the entire story is patently ridiculous beyond the wildest LSD induced trip. so start there. if anyone has any lick of sense the might question the truth of the story.

 

B. later on in the new testament we are told that sin entered the world through one man - Adam - who we hopefully can show from argument A - DID NOT EXIST.

 

Conclusion. there is no sin and Jesus died for nothing.

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plus there is no garden guarded by a flaming sword as the bible claims.

 

Oh-oh-oh! (raises hand) I can answer that! The garden was destroyed in the flood!

 

 

 

 

;)

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I would ask them a few questions about whethere these events really happened.

 

Talking animals?

One of god's warriors having a magic hammer that channeled lightning?

Magic bears summoned to smite his enemies?

Magic goats summoned to transport his troops?

etc etc

 

Most people will have NO idea which of these crazy accounts are in the Bible. Its funny to see them try to guess right.

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I've learned over the years that there are no "silver bullets" to convince a believer that they are wrong about something. Not even facts seem to go through.

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...I need the kinds of questions, statements or facts that bring these stupid, pointless conversations about Casper

to a halt...

 

Use this one only on your wife. It should end the God conversation.

 

"Baby, you're the love of my life and the most beautiful thing I have ever seen." (say this as you kiss the back of her neck and pick her up and carry her to the bedroom)

 

Let me know if it works.

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