Fluid Morality

[dB-Paradox]

What are morals? Are they fluid or fixed?

[JadedAtheist]

I haven't thought too much about this issue but I think that there is no fixed (or absolute) morals. I think the general idea of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is applicable. I guess the waters only get murky when someone doesn't do as they would like to receive..

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Mine are fixed largely. I have high moral standards for myself, whether or not I can fully live up to them is another matter. I just strive to. Though its not necessarily rigid.

[Galien]

to me its about, if i do this will it make the world a better or a worse place for everyone? But I particularly hate lying, i feel it is at the basis of a lot of the crap in the world

[dB-Paradox]

Do unto others....this is interesting, as one might not care if they were lied to. Or they might not care if a spouse looked outside their marriage for an emotional or physical need. Some cultures care very little for their material possessions, and so don't care if someone would take their stuff (as they take other's). Murder is one of the few morally wrongs which I think most people can agree that no one wants done to them. So even "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" doesn't seem to be a fixed idea.

[Vomit Comet]

There's all kinds of shit I would do if I knew for a fact I would get away with it. Nothing seriously violent, mind you, although I might track down three or four people and beat the shit out of them. I'd try not to cause permanent damage, I'd just give them a good kicking until all the fight is beaten out of them and they're writhing in the gutter. They'd all deserve it, too.

 

That aside, I'd go to town. Well, mainly shit like fraud and whatnot in order to enrich myself, though I'd be as selective as possible with my targets, stealing diamonds and high-end art and shit like that, and fleecing the likes of Goldman Sachs as opposed to little old ladies. I'd go on a burglary spree all up and down Beverly Hills and maybe tunnel into a bank vault and pick it clean. I'd be sorely tempted to cheat on my fiancée but wouldn't because I promised her I wouldn't, but damn would I be tempted. I guess my torch of sleaze will just go on burning forever.

 

This would be if I knew 100% there was no way in hell I was going to get busted. Unfortunately, it's the real world we live in.

 

I would also commandeer a semi-truck and drive it right through a Strip casino on a Friday night, providing I had 100% assurance nobody was going to be crushed or have a heart attack or anything. Yeeeeee-Hawwwwwwww!!!

[Ouroboros]

What are morals? Are they fluid or fixed?

Both. They're sticky.

[JadedAtheist]

There's all kinds of shit I would do if I knew for a fact I would get away with it.

 

Hell yeah! I'd pretty much do everything you said.

[Galien]

There's all kinds of shit I would do if I knew for a fact I would get away with it.

 

Hell yeah! I'd pretty much do everything you said.

 

 

Yeah that is the bit I don't get. WHY would you?

[FinallyFree]

What are morals? Are they fluid or fixed?

 

I found myself wanting to answer "It depends" to all of these questions. Sure, murder may be wrong in some circumstances - but what if its self defense. Sure, lying probably isn't a good idea, but if your intent is to keep from hurting something - who can say you're wrong.

 

I think everyone is their own judge - it doesn't mean that you wont fee bad about doing something, it just means that you feel justified in doing it.

 

Everlast, "What it's like"

We've all seen the man at the liquor store beggin' for your change

The hair on his face is dirty, dreadlocked and full of mange

He ask the man for what he could spare with shame in his eyes

Get a job you fuckin' slob's all he replied

 

[CHORUS]

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues

Then you really might know what it's like [x4]

 

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love

He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of

But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call

And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls

And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors

They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a whore

 

[CHORUS]

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

Then you really might know what it's like [x4]

 

I've seen a rich man beg

I've seen a good man sin

I've seen a tough man cry

I've seen a loser win

And a sad man grin

I heard an honest man lie

I've seen the good side of bad

And the down side of up

And everything between

I licked the silver spoon

Drank from the golden cup

Smoked the finest green

I stroked the fattest dimes at least a couple of times

Before I broke their heart

You know where it ends

Yo, it usually depends on where you start

 

I knew this kid named Max

He used to get fat stacks out on the corner with drugs

He liked to hang out late at night

Liked to get shit faced

And keep pace with thugs

Until late one night there was a big gun fight

Max lost his head

He pulled out his chrome .45

Talked some shit

And wound up dead

Now his wife and his kids are caught in the midst of all of his pain

You know it crumbles that way

At least that's what they say when you play the game

 

[CHORUS]

God forbid you ever had to wake up to hear the news

'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to lose

Then you really might know what it's like [x3]

 

To have to lose...

[OpheliaGinger]

I don't like to hold moral absolutes because a situation may crop up that would cause you to violate the absolute.

 

Would you not steal food even if it meant not feeding your starving family (unemployment benefits ran out and there is absolutely no jobs in your area--including prostitution) because it is theft?

 

Would you not fire your gun to kill when an intruder is raping your daughter because it is murder?

 

Would you tell where the Frank family is hiding because you didn't want to lie (cliche, but at least widely recognizable)?

 

Would you refrain from letting your eye wonder if your spouse was abusing and neglecting you because it would be cheating?

 

etc.

[Legion]

The trick to being repressed moral is to pretend that you are constantly being watched by people you respect and honor.

 

 

 

[Galien]

The trick to being repressed moral is to pretend that you are constantly being watched by people you respect and honor.

 

 

 

 

Really Legion? Coz the only eyes I have to please are my own

 

Hmm so if a christian is moral when no one is looking, does that mean it never happened at all........

[Galien]

I don't like to hold moral absolutes because a situation may crop up that would cause you to violate the absolute.

 

Would you not steal food even if it meant not feeding your starving family (unemployment benefits ran out and there is absolutely no jobs in your area--including prostitution) because it is theft?

 

Would you not fire your gun to kill when an intruder is raping your daughter because it is murder?

 

Would you tell where the Frank family is hiding because you didn't want to lie (cliche, but at least widely recognizable)?

 

Would you refrain from letting your eye wonder if your spouse was abusing and neglecting you because it would be cheating?

 

etc.

 

My morals are not negotiable in usual circumstances, but are one natural disaster away from negotiation, just like all of us I suspect I find the veneer of civilisation very thin.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I don't like to hold moral absolutes because a situation may crop up that would cause you to violate the absolute.

 

Would you not steal food even if it meant not feeding your starving family (unemployment benefits ran out and there is absolutely no jobs in your area--including prostitution) because it is theft?

 

Would you not fire your gun to kill when an intruder is raping your daughter because it is murder?

 

Would you tell where the Frank family is hiding because you didn't want to lie (cliche, but at least widely recognizable)?

 

Would you refrain from letting your eye wonder if your spouse was abusing and neglecting you because it would be cheating?

 

etc.

To be honest, I fussed over the details, specifically "If you don't feel guilty doing it, then it's fine", as I would feel guilty, even if its something I absolutely had to do. Even if in self defence, or survival, I couldn't manage to escape the guilt. Though I would kill in self defense if I absolutely had to, or steal if I had no other means of getting food.

 

Though if my man was cheating on me, I'd confront him about it, and tell him it's over. As he's got no reason not to tell me, I'm all for him being polyamourous if done responsibly and with me knowing. He'd have no excuse other than to be seeking someone else. I wouldn't have to cheat, I'd be single haha.

[Vomit Comet]

Yeah that is the bit I don't get. WHY would you?

 

Two reasons!

 

1. To become filthy rich.

 

2. Shit like driving a semi-truck through Caesar's Palace would of course be for the lulz. Although I guess the knowledge that I absolutely would not get busted would take some of the thrill out of it.

[Thurisaz]

Faced with only the two choices given in this poll I have to answer "yes" to all if it... the real thing is of course much more complicated. My generic POV can best be summed up by "Act morally until and unless the other side has shown that it doesn't deserve being treated morally". That is, if I know I'm facing a habitual liar, you better not assume that I'll keep being truthful to that person

[Galien]

Yeah that is the bit I don't get. WHY would you?

 

Two reasons!

 

1. To become filthy rich.

 

2. Shit like driving a semi-truck through Caesar's Palace would of course be for the lulz. Although I guess the knowledge that I absolutely would not get busted would take some of the thrill out of it.

 

I must be completely boring on some fundamental level

[Galien]

Faced with only the two choices given in this poll I have to answer "yes" to all if it... the real thing is of course much more complicated. My generic POV can best be summed up by "Act morally until and unless the other side has shown that it doesn't deserve being treated morally". That is, if I know I'm facing a habitual liar, you better not assume that I'll keep being truthful to that person

 

But why be a liar just because someone else is? Doesn't make sense to me.

[dB-Paradox]

My wife got upset when her cousin lied to her about being busy. My wife offered to pick her up for church and her cousin said she had plans already. I guess later my wife found out her cousin just stayed home, and that she really didn't have any plans. Was it wrong for her cousin to lie to my wife? I say no. If my wife's cousin wanted to keep her reasons private, I suppose she could have just said so, unless she felt she was going to get harassed and pressured into going to church. But either way, I say there's nothing wrong with lying, as long as it doesn't harm someone else in the process (spreading rumors). I even say it's alright to lie about being sick just to get a day off work now and again!

[SilentLoner]

Its all about circumstances. I don't like absolutes.

[HRDWarrior]

In a way, I think many of those choices are a bit too broad...overall, with the exception of the last, I say they are wrong, but much of that depends on context - a lack of guilt does not, IMO, provide context. I doubt Jeffrey Dahmer felt much guilt about killing his victims, yet I doubt many of use would say it was a-okay for him to do it.

 

So, I'll tackle each one - murder, in self defense, defense of another, war, etc I feel is okay. Cold blooded murder without a really damn good reason - not okay.

 

Lying - Overall, not okay. There are generally ways to be truthful without baring your soul to another person. Lying, in my experience, is an ugly trap to get into. I would refuse to have an employee who was a lier, and would be unlikely to work someplace for an extended period where a lier was given free rein. I would not stay in a relationship with someone I couldn't trust.

 

Stealing - again, overall wrong. Stealing implies possession and a sense of possession of an item/object/whatever - so any sharing type of cultural rules would be excluded since the sense of ownership would not exist. That being said, if someone is literally starving (unlike the majority of homeless at least in this area) and has no means whatsoever of getting some food despite trying their hardest to work for it, ya know, I'd let it go if they were fulfilling a true need. Any kid breaking into my or anyone else's home to steal our electronics, stealing my car or stuff out of it, stealing my purse or wallet - just wrong. And to define stealing, it's taking something without returning it in equal or better condition. Permission may be a bit loose, as there are times I have borrowed things from work to return them the next day without asking my boss (mostly because I knew she'd never miss it, and if I broke it, I'd replace it).

 

Cheating - this one has a huge cultural and even down to individual relationship opinion that could drastically change the answer. I voted it was wrong, but that is under the context of our culture, and my marriage. We do not have an open relationship (hubby is still pretty dang traditional in that department) and our culture has a stigma on cheating. Any time it is done behind the other person's back with the intention of hiding it from their knowledge, then I think it's wrong. If it's allowed in your relationship -openly and honestly - or if you live in a culture where it is acceptable and normal, then I have no problems with it. I do NOT feel this is an absolute moral if you will - this one is very subjective.

 

Hate - the only one I voted that it is okay. We are allowed to feel as we may - it's what we do with those feeling that truly defines us (see above). I am allowed to hate my coworker - this does not mean I am free to undermine her work, lie about her, steal her stuff or kill her or have sex with her boyfriend just to "get at" her.

[Suzy]

My moral is generally to not hurt other people. Of course that includes not to kill, steal, preferably not to lie (I hate to lie, but I don't say I never do), not to cheat on your loved one etc. So I voted with a 'yes' for all of the above.

 

However there are things the Bible considers a sin as well but I don't find them immoral any more. Like sex outside of marriage - if none of the parties cheat on anyone, it's not immoral.

 

I voted with a 'yes' to the 'hate' question as well, but that's probably the most difficult one. Depends. Hating without a reason is wrong. However it's not wrong to hate people who have done evil things.

[dB-Paradox]

Hating without a reason is wrong. However it's not wrong to hate people who have done evil things.

This is intriguing on a few levels.

 

As far as the rest go, I agree that morality should consist of not hurting other people. However, there are so many factors which come in to play, like culture, circumstance, and how deep the religious indoctrination went. Generally, the 10 commandments are a guide to moral living, but the first commandment right off the hop is not considered moral by everyone. In fact, it might even be considered moral by NOT observing it!

[Galien]

My wife got upset when her cousin lied to her about being busy. My wife offered to pick her up for church and her cousin said she had plans already. I guess later my wife found out her cousin just stayed home, and that she really didn't have any plans. Was it wrong for her cousin to lie to my wife? I say no. If my wife's cousin wanted to keep her reasons private, I suppose she could have just said so, unless she felt she was going to get harassed and pressured into going to church. But either way, I say there's nothing wrong with lying, as long as it doesn't harm someone else in the process (spreading rumors). I even say it's alright to lie about being sick just to get a day off work now and again!

 

Sounds then like people lie because they lack the courage to tell the truth. Interesting. Lying diminishes all of us, but I do realise most people don't care too much about that