Out Of The Extreme

[DayLight]

I sent this post in as a testimonial thing, as well. I hope that's okay.

 

Hi, I'm new to this forum, my name's Rachael,

 

I still believe there is some sort of absolute mind, though. Based on my studies of logic and physics, I cannot see how existence is capable without it.

 

So now I'm flailing, lost in the dark, having let go of something solid but untrue and searching for something true-r. Atheism cannot be the truth, but neither can any other religion I've studied.

 

But nevertheless, my life has been so much better since abandoning Christianity. My guilt has been shed, I no longer feel that nagging shame of not having read my Bible or gone through the routine of praying to brick walls. I feel loose. Free. And while I still have a great deal of respect for rational Christianity, I must say being free of it has never felt better.

 

I *would* like to point out, though, that having been raised with a very rational sort of Christianity - one that never ever gave 'just have faith' as a response for any question no matter how hard, I do have a distaste for nonChristians who misrepresent or interpret what the deeper doctrines of Christianity actually teach. Christianity does have flaws, yes, but from what I've found they're not usually what people tend to accuse it of. The same goes for Christians who ridicule the nonChristian side without truly understanding the reasoning behind its position. As a result of this I tend to defend Christianity just as much as I attack it.

 

So, I suppose that is it. It's good to meet you all, and I look forward to some stimulating conversations here on the forums.

 

 

I am an ex-Christian. I wanted to share some of my thoughts just in case you (or somebody else) might find something useful. I used to be a devoted Christian. I was the kind of a person who would argue against scientific evidence in favor of the Bible "facts". I figured: people are wrong often, even scientists, so they might be missing some important information or not doing something correctly and are seeing the wrong picture. I was in denial about the 'bad side of God" so that I was able to see God as good, just and loving (in spite of all the bad stuff written in the old testament).

 

So what could turn me from believing Christianity? Ironically, my decision to “get closer to God” did that. At that time I started to talk to God A LOT in my thoughts. I did not believe that God talks back to people casually. So I didn’t expect to hear back from him. So when he did communicate with me, it was an amazing unexpected surprise.

 

Different people claim that Somebody talks to them. Some say: it’s the Holy Spirit, others that it’s Jesus, others that it’s some spirit or angels or dead people or….Basically it’s Somebody. And they are identifying that Somebody in terms of their own belief or understanding.

 

Well, I thought it was Jesus talking to me. And although I believed that, the actual image in my head of Jesus has changed (I imagined him a little different from just reading the Bible and being taught Christian doctrines). Jesus was not stuffy/holy in the sense that the Bible implies. He was fun. And he was capable of joking. And loving. And wise. And a joy to talk to. At first, mostly he was trying to convince me that he loved me (not in a “you are a pitiful sinner so I love you” kind of way. But in “I am in love with you and you are a treasure to me” kind of way). When I needed comfort, he encouraged me to come and “cry on his shoulder” so to speak. He told me that it hurts him when I am hurt and that he knows my thoughts and feels my feelings.

 

Some things he told me in words. Some others I received through an inner understanding. It was like he was teaching me by transmitting his understanding into my brain. My eyes started to open to the reality of what Christians were doing. I realized that to simply believe in Jesus does nothing for one’s soul or heart. It’s useless to simply “believe”, to have a head knowledge. It’s what you do based on it that matters.

 

I started to see how Christians instead of “loving and forgiving all” feel critical judgment for others, distaste for others, prejudices, feel and act like they are superior and sometimes even feel hatred for those they are “sending to hell”. Some of the teachings maybe good, but the side effects are bad and people seem to embrace the negative much better than the positive. I started to see that what Christians did was NOT going to save them. They did not follow their own teachings, so how did they expect to be saved? So nobody is getting saved…except a few. But they are too blind to see it. I saw that the only important thing was to love. That was the only message that Christians really needed to know. So little by little I was shifting away from believing the way Christians did. I also learned that hell was not true. And it was great news to me.

 

Later (when I was emotionally ready for this news) I learned was that there is no “Jesus, the Savior of Humanity, God”. There is only a Jesus the Jew, a good man, who tried to help people with his teachings.

 

I was told that there is a Creator but he is NOT as described in the Bible. And he is many, not one. (but perhaps unified in some way) The God of the Bible image was made up throughout time by mixing different ideas into one (often contradictory ideas). And therefore, some of the things believed about God are actually simply impossible. These impossibilities are hard to see and most people accept any nonsense “by faith” anyways. So most people don’t see these contradictions in the words they are saying.

 

We are guided by someone (like a bigger brother in a sense). But we are not expected to do anyone’s will. Our life choices are ours to make. There is evil in people, but it’s not what we think. We don’t really understand what evil is. And selfishness is the highest form of evil. But we are what we are. It’s like our genes and our circumstances dictate who we will turn out to be. It’s almost like we have no say in the matter (only a little bit). It’s like the course of our life and character is pre-programmed in early childhood. So knowing that, how could God judge people for them doing what they do? They were made that way by life. They have no choice. It’s a good thing that God does not judge like the Bible implies. There is no Satan as a being, there is something else, which I didn’t understand yet. But it’s more like negative energies that are at work, which can make us or break us and we have to adjust our responses accordingly.

 

I know that I am talking to Somebody. But I don’t know how to identify him/them. So I just made up a name: JQ. (And some people in later generations will probably read what I wrote and believe that there really was JQ. But the thing is: there IS somebody represented by that name. It’s just that the image of JQ in their head might be different from what’s in mine)

 

I learned that Somebody does communicate with people, but the messages mostly are not understood correctly. “The other side” is quite different from ours and so it’s very hard to explain that reality to the people of our existence. And so, as a result, there ARE some messages from the other side in different religions, including the Bible, but they are few, and mostly not understood nor interpreted correctly. Because in order to see/understand something correctly, you need to understand/see many other things. It’s like before you can know algebra, you first have to know how to add. It’s like people are holding a little piece of the puzzle and are trying to imagine how the whole picture looks from that little piece. The only reason that I can see a little bit of the truth is because I am learning a wide variety of things now and I see my mind’s eye rising above small details and allowing me see things more objectively, a bigger picture. There is a long way to go. But at least it’s exciting to start to see something forming.

 

So that’s what religions are: rumors about life. Somebody heard something, wrote it down, it got misunderstood and passed down. People started to follow certain things and added their own to that and added their own interpretations. So a religion after religion, denomination after denomination is being born. And they are simply rumors. There is some truth, I can partly see it now (like through a foggy glass). Some say we are God. Others say we have to find God inside of us. Others say we have to develop to reach God and become one with God. Some say we came from heaven and are going to go back there again. Others say we will die here. Some say we will be resurrected in a new body. And I can see that all of these ideas have a little bit of the truth in them, but only partially. It’s like people are trying to give birth to a religion based on 1 little piece of the puzzle. But it would be better if everybody got together and compared notes so to speak and tried to put the pieces together. That might be able to get us somewhere.

 

 

Some say: there is no God. Well, it's true in a sense. There is no God as most people imagine when they think "God". There is no Being in existence with the knowledge and capabilities that people ascribe to God. It's impossible for such Being to exist. Some say: it's myself talking to myself. And this is also true somewhat. Somehow, the "god" in us is also us. I don't know how to explain this, I just know that there is some truth to it. It's like we are a human and a heavenly being all at once and at the same time, not quite that simple.

 

Even though the Bible is not the truth, there are certain things in it that have some truth to it. For example, the part about us becoming one with “God” is kind of true. There is a Creator (although the creation story is wrong). (Although evolution is probably partly true too, I am not clear on that one). There is someone who loves each person, there is a “paradise like” life in a place which we imagine as “heaven”. There is somebody who (in a sense) lives inside of us, is connected to us and is with us always. There is a marriage-like joining (in relation to “becoming one”). JQ are loving and compassionate and merciful and very wise and very smart. And “many things are possible with them”.

 

We were created in their image and were programmed to imitate them.

 

 

And just to share a few things I learned about the difference between our existence here and our future one. Here, we have external beauty and internal. It seems that “there” it’s not separate, it’s either the same thing, or two parts of the same coin. So there is no such thing as: beautiful on the outside, but ugly on the inside. Or the opposite. A beautiful being there is beautiful both inside and outside at the same time. It's like it's impossible to be beautiful on the inside and ugly on the outside or vise versa.

 

 

Love and desire, love and pleasure are also the same thing or two parts of the same coin. They cannot be one without the other. Here, for example, one can have sex/pleasure without actually loving the person. Just the mechanical act of sex and deriving pleasure pre-programmed by this act. There, such an act would be impossible. You would have to love the person before you can experience any pleasure with that person.

 

 

Somebody might say: I am coming up with yet another rumor about life. And yes, it’s true in part. But the more we grow as humanity, the more we understand. So our generations have understood things a little bit better than previous ones. So I believe I see a little bit more of the truth than some others. But of course, we all see only in part. I can only share what I know. And all I know is that Somebody is teaching me all this stuff. And perhaps some of it I just involuntarily made up by making conclusions in my head incorrectly about some of the things said to me. It’s possible. But there could be a little something useful here and there anyways…

 

 

 

 

[Guest riverrunner]

I am perplexed as to why you say atheism can't be true. why not? it makes much more sense than anything else.

[nightflight]

My dad is Matt Slick, and he is the author of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry, or www.carm.org.

I no longer live at home, but this organization is the sole income of the rest of my family. My father's been on TV, debated Dan Barker, and his site (not necessarily him himself) is pretty much the personification of rationality in Christianity.

 

Holy shit! Your dad was nasty to me once; its cool to meet his daughter! Welcome to Ex-C.

 

Wow, Matt Slick's daughter. I feel like I'm in the Wermacht when they captured Stalin's son!

[nightflight]

And what I mean by nonChristians "who misrepresent or interpret," I mean nonChristians who don't thoroughly know what Christianity teaches, or attack portions of Christianity which do have legitimate rebuttals. I don't believe Christianity is true, but I would much rather see people who attack it to be attacking it knowledgeably and intelligently, as I believe you did well in that post.

 

 

You do realize though that its really difficult to debate Christians when there is sooo much variation in their doctrines? I ran into this often at ChristianForums. No matter what I said a Christian would tell me "that's not what Christians believe"; meaning its not what those in that particular sect believed.

[decafaholic]

Welcome! It's great to have you and congratulations on shedding the guilt!

[Phanta]

Phanta,

Good job for actually going back to read the verses, something i didn't bother to do in this case.

 

Thanks.

 

Despite being in church and youth group a fair amount growing up, I was always daydreaming in my own little world, so most Bible discussion went in one ear and out the other. In this way, I'm learning a lot about Christian doctrine and being exposed to the majority of Biblical stories and verses for the first time.

 

It's interesting And easier, I think, to come at objectively than if I had baggage around them. (There are a couple stories I do know well and I have a lot of baggage around. They are much harder to critique from a place of open curiosity and measured assessment... It's a journey.)

 

Phanta

[StickWitch]

Daylight,

That's a lovely description of your place *in* Christianity, and it sounds similar to my own, too - although in my case I never really 'felt' Jesus as much as you say you did.

I will say, though, that the following description of what's 'out there' seems extremely vague, like you're just explaining random things that feel good. If you've got any evidence for your theories, though, I'd be happy to hear them.

 

Riverrunner,

In Christianity I came to the conclusion, separate from the Bible, that there must be some intelligent designer. There are multiple reasons for this, some a little more complex than I feel like explaining right now. But to summarize, a god is required based off my study of physics, time, and logic. It isn't the Christian god, unless the Christian god is facepalming over the use of the Bible, and it might not even be a 'god' as you define it, but rather more along the lines of an absolute ultimate system... But for now I'm calling it some sort of god. Atheism itself, I think, raises more questions than it answers. I really don't know what the hell anymore to believe.

 

Nightflight,

Victory for the opposing team, I guess? I heard a 'serious discussion' was being had about me when I visited my Mom the other day, but no details further than that. I wonder if he found this thread. And yeah, Christian denominations vary a ton. When I was growing up it was "whoever believes that Jesus' blood *alone* saved them" qualified as Christian... and then all the other varying doctrines didn't matter as much.

 

Thank you, Decafaholic

 

Phanta,

It is definitely a journey. I find myself thinking in Christianese constantly, and I have to go wait - Rachael - you don't believe that anymore. Or thinking that society should be working one way, and I have to go wait - no, that's based off of morals you never really believed in in the first place. It's all ingrained so deeply!

[seeboh]

Oh my god, Matt Slick's daughter an ExChristian. Who woulda thunk it? I watch your dad get slaughtered by Matt Dillahunty on TAG. It's great to hear that you're out! I'd be interested in why you think that physics and logic demands an absolute mind. Why not make another thread about it? You have the potential to be very influential. It's great to hear that your life is better now. Good to have you on this forum.

[nightflight]

Did you ever have dinner with Eric Landstrom?

[Galien]

 

And while I know it is unfair to judge a religion based on the people within it

 

 

 

Really? Works for me Great to have you here

[cw89]

Thank you so much for sharing that. I enjoyed reading it. After i left Christianity I felt the same feelings of freedom and no guilt.The difference with my experience is as a southern baptist all you needed was faith. Any ways welcome.

[StickWitch]

I think I will make another thread on it, after my life settles down a bit and I have time to mull it all over. Putting it all into words will be no easy feat. =P

 

I don't think I ever had 'dinner' with him. I might have met him a few times, but I don't remember what he looks like or anything further than that.

[8gr8cats]

Rachael, I realize it's been a while since you posted this and I hope you subscribed to the thread. This weekend Seth- The Thinking Atheist is going to be doing a podcast on Christian Apologetics... I was hoping you might call in and speak to him about your life living with Mr. CARM- BTW- I found your dad's site when I did a vanity search- my nickname is CARM! You could either write to him at editor@thethinkingatheist OR this is the link should you be able to call in on Saturday, February 26th- at 11AM EST. This was the podcast link from last weeks- http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thethinkingatheist/2011/02/19/grief-without-god I think this should be the link for next week- http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thethinkingatheist/2011/02/26/Christian_Apologetics

[FirstInTheDance]

Phanta,

 

My issue with those verses is that it WAS ok to gang rape the concubine. This "good" man OFFERED her and his virgin daughter up to a drunken mob rather than let them sodomize some man who was a stranger to him. What wasn't ok with him was that she died as a result. Women then were regarded as property, and it was a crime to destroy another man's property. I'm sure the man felt very insulted by the incident.

[LivingLife]

Thanks guys for the welcome and support - and, looking through the forums, I must say I'm impressed by how a lot of you treat Christians. From the other side I always expected hostility, and there really isn't any more than what comes from the Christians themselves.

 

And I don't know if my Dad knows I'm not a Christian, or even if I'm getting married or where I'm living - from what I hear my family doesn't talk about me much - though he'll probably find this thread sooner or later. Surprise, dad.

I haven't talked to my Dad in over a year, save for one brief meeting in which I told him I didn't want to see him again. *I* left *him,* as my opinions about his personal virtue are quite low.

I'm close with the rest of my family, and I visit them on occasion when my Dad's gone (though I live 300 miles away). They don't approve of my decision to leave Christianity, but they're not shunning me, either. Things would be very different if I still lived under their roof, though, so thank goodness I don't.

The 1st para caught my eye. BTW welcome.

 

We are generally tolerant of those that would engage in discussion but pretty offensive to the preachy types, speaking for myself of course.

 

I had debates online with your dad a number of years ago.

 

You mentioned that you still have residual beliefs and that is OK, the process of deconversion is not instantaneous.

 

Oops I see it is an old thread.