Mentions of Jesus outside of the Bible?

[seeker]

I have heard from Catholics and Christians that there are many written works about Jesus aside from the Bible from people who were not Jewish or Christian. I found this on another forum. Anyone want to refute it?

 

"One popular misconception about Jesus is that there is no mention of Him in any ancient sources outside of the Bible. On the contrary, there are numerous references to him as an historical figure who died at the hand of Pontius Pilate. Some even noted that he was reported to have risen from the dead, and was worshiped as a God by all who followed him."

 

 

JOSEPHUS: (37-101 A.D.)

 

Josephus was born in Jerusalem only four years after Jesus' crucifixion. He was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Josephus mentions many events and people from the Gospels. Josephus was an Orthodox Jew who was commissioned by the Romans to write a history of the Jewish people and Rome up until that point.

 

Mentions Jesus: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

 

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

 

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)

 

Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

 

"What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men...The wise king...Lived on in the teachings he enacted."

 

Below are from what other secular writers mentioned of Jesus in their writings-

 

Jesus was a wise man and was called the Christ or Messiah, (Josephus)

 

Jesus gained many disciples from many nations, (Josephus)

 

He healed blind and lame people in Bethsaida and Bethany, (Julian the Apostate)

 

He was accused of practicing sorcery and leading Israel astray, (the Talmud)

 

Under Herod, and during the reign of Tiberius, Pontius Pilate condemned Christ to die, (Tacitus)

 

Christ was crucified on the eve of Passover, (the Talmud)

 

His crucifixion was accompanied by three hours of unexplained darkness, (Thallus)

 

Christ's disciples, "reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;", (Josephus)

 

His disciples took to the habit of meeting on a fixed day of the week and took their name "Christians" from him, (Pliny)

 

They gave worship to Christ "as to a god", (Pliny)

 

They bound themselves over to abstaining from wicked deeds, fraud, theft, adultery, and lying, (Pliny)

 

Christians held a contempt for death and were known for a voluntary self-devotion, (Lucian)

 

Christians believed themselves all brothers from the moment of their conversion, (Lucian)

 

Christians lived after Christ's laws, (Lucian)

 

Christians were willingly tortured and even executed for their refusal to deny their belief in the resurrection and deity of Jesus Christ. (Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny, Lucian)

 

Does any of this count for those skeptic of Jesus' actual existance? Or does it take more?

[Asimov]

http://www.infidelguy.com/ftopic-5522-0.html

[Dianka]

So then what do you all think about this? I think with all the inconsistent and ambiguous text regarding the evidence of a historical Jesus, we can only read so much before our eyes fall out.

 

We have to pass our own judgement on this one.

 

Seeker, what are you trying to argue? That there was a Jesus? I don't think that any evidence of Jesus' existence verifies his statue as the son of God.

 

I think he existed, but the miracles associated with him are all heresay. People back then were extremely superstituous, and the unlikely nature of the Bible only enforces the superstition of the time.

 

My opinion:

Jesus? Yes

Son of God?

[Mythra]

Good post. Sounds convincing. How bout we deal with those quotes one at a time? The Josephus antiquities passage has already been talked to death. Just the fact that that passage was "discovered" by Eusebius in the fourth century, after being missed by two centuries of christian apologists who knew Josephus' writings speaks for itself. Not to mention Eusebius had other quotes that stated it was okay to stretch the truth if the cause of Christ was advanced.

 

Heimdall has demolished the legitimacy of this quote in rants. This quote is known as the Testimonium Flavianum.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

And here's the dirt on the Letter of Mara Bar-serapion:

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/.../4/4mara95.html

[Mythra]

And here's the dirt on the Letter of Mara Bar-serapion:

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/.../4/4mara95.html

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm. Written in 73 CE, huh? Or, was that just the EARLIEST possible date it could have been written? Could be more like 150 CE. Could be in reference to stories of Jesus being passed around word of mouth. Could be it's not even in reference to Jesus, but about a king of Israel from 700 BCE. SOLID. VERY SOLID.

 

Then, we get to the next two references by "other" non-christian sources. And they are just taken from the very same Josephus reference mentioned and debunked earlier.

 

On we go.

[Gnosis of Disbelief]

Hmm.  Written in 73 CE, huh?  Or, was that just the EARLIEST possible date it could have been written?  Could be more like 150 CE.  Could be in reference to stories of Jesus being passed around word of mouth.  Could be it's not even in reference to Jesus, but about a king of Israel from 700 BCE.  SOLID.  VERY SOLID.

 

Then, we get to the next two references by "other" non-christian sources.  And they are just taken from the very same Josephus reference mentioned and debunked earlier.

 

On we go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Yeah, christians keep dredging up the same old counter-arguments over

and over again, don't they?

[Mythra]

The quote from Julian the Apostate. Why not give the whole quote?

More "stretching" to advance the cause of christ.

 

Here is the whole quote.

 

"Yet Jesus, who won over the least worthy of you, has been known by name for but little more than three hundred years; and during his lifetime he accomplished nothing worth hearing of, unless anyone thinks that to heal crooked and blind men and to exorcise those who were possessed by evil demons in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany can be classed as a mighty achievement."

 

Because I write that it is being said that Jesus rose from the dead, does that prove that he did? That is all this quote is. Worse than hearsay.

 

Julian the Apostate. You give us a quote from a mid fourth century Roman Emperor, who came after Constantine and the Council of Nicaea? Get real.

 

Nuff said about that one.

[Mythra]

ps seeker: I know you aren't a fundy.

 

When I say "you" I'm referring to whatever christian compiled this list of "proof" for a historical Jesus.

[seeker]

Whoa whoa whoa!!!! Hahah. I FOUND all of what I posted on another website and just wanted to hear some rebuttles. I'm very knew to the Christian view and I'm hearing all these different sides. So I'm just trying to make sense out of all of it because I'll hear a great point by a Christian. But then I hear an EX-Christian's rebuttle and it makes perfect sense.

[Mythra]

I like how christians misquote and give a partial quote to "prove" their jesus. Tells you just how desperate they are.

 

Such is the case with the Talmud quotes. There are several Yeishu's in the Talmud. Yeishu ben Pandeira, also known as Yeishu ha-Notzri. There was also Yeishu ben Perachyah. There is also Yeishu ben Stada

 

When christians say there is a reference to Jesus being crucified on the eve before passover, they are being deliberately misleading. They are referencing Sanhedrin 43a. This passage is in reference to Yeishu ben Pandeira, (as is the "sorcerer and magician" quote) and he lived 100 years too early to be the Jesus of the bible. And, the Talmud does not say he was crucified. It says he was stoned and then hung. This Yeishu ben Pandeira had five disciples: Matthai, Nakkai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah.

 

Christians won't tell you these details as they "quote" the Talmud.

 

This is the closest thing there is in the Talmud to a reference about Jesus.

 

Here is the actual passage from the Talmud. Judge for yourself if the christian who quotes it is telling the whole story.

 

"On the eve of Passover, Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Anyone who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover! Ulla retorted: Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)? Concerning him, scripture says; Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him? With Yeshu however, it was different, for he was connected with the government for royalty. Our rabbis taught Yeshu had five disciples: Matthai, Nakkai, Nezer, Buni, and Todah."

 

This is the nature of the "evidence" that christians try to pawn off as proof.

[Mythra]

Heimdall deals with Tacitus and Pliny and Suetonius in his thread "Testimonium Flavianum" in Rants. No use beating it up here as well.

 

On to Lucian of Samosata. Lucian was a greek satirist and the references listed are from one of Lucian's writings called "The Passing of the Peregrinus". This was written approximately 170 CE.

 

Now then. What exactly are these quotes listed in this thread supposed to prove? That there were christians existing in 170 CE? No one is disputing that.

 

Let's say that I were to write a little something about the Mormons. That they try to be very moral and upright. That they stress the strength of the family. That they honor their ancestors. That they are very strong in their religion and adamant about the truthfullness of it, and many mormons have died as martyrs for their faith.

 

Now - would it make sense for someone to read this and make the inference that Jesus did, indeed, visit the ancient tribes of the Americas? Or that the account of the gold plates used by Joseph Smith to write the Book of Mormon is authentic and actually happened?

 

Proof of christians in 170 CE - (140 years after the time that jesus supposedly died) - does nothing to support the claims of there having been a historical jesus.

[Amethyst]

As both a bookworm and an aspiring writer, I know that you can't assume that just because something is written down, it's real. Just because there were Christians during that time, doesn't prove anything. And Jesus was also a popular name then, so it's entirely possible that there was a Jesus who was a philosopher and cult leader. But that doesn't prove he was god.

 

Also, we cannot discount the similarities between Jesus and many Pagan deities. IMHO, he was a literary conglomeration with a bit of historical info thrown in.

 

Maybe the Bible was a sort of fan fiction, an account of someone named Jesus, but mixed in with a lot of Pagan deities' characteristics. You know, like the fanfics on the Internet where you read about some rock star or actor, or TV show character. They suddenly get super powers or something, and usually end up sleeping with the writer of the story, or a character who is like what the writer wants to be, or saving the world...whatever fantasy the author wants to fulfill. This is otherwise known as a Mary Sue. I would not be entirely surprised if that turned out to be the case either.

[Mythra]

You know a name that you will NEVER hear a christian reference when trying to prove their jesus?

 

Philo. AKA Philo Judaeus. AKA Philo Alexandrinus. AKA Philo of Alexandria.

 

I know we mention him a lot here, but he is important to this argument.

 

His lifetime spanned the time when jesus is assumed to have lived. He has a huge volume of writings that we retain today. His writings are theological in nature, and there is no question that his ideas of adapting judaism to fit within a hellenistic framework found their way into the new testament writings.

 

following is an exerpt from an article by Lee Salisbury at dissidentvoice.org about Philo.

 

Philo-Judaeus 15BCE - 50CE, of Alexandria, a greek-speaking jewish theologian-philosopher, personally knew Jerusalem because of family living there. He wrote extensively on jewish history and religion from a Greek perspective and taught the following concepts all prominent in John's gospel and Paul's epistles: God and his word are one; the Word is the first begotten Son of God; God created the world through his Word; God holds all things together through his Word; the Word is the fountain of eternal life; the Word dwells in and among us; all judgment is committed to God's Word, and the Word never changes. Philo also taught on God as Spirit, the Trinity, the virgin birth, Jews who sin will go to hell, Gentiles who come to God will be saved and go to heaven, and God is love and forgives. Yet Philo, a Jew in nearby Alexandria, who would have been a contemporary of Jesus, never once mentions anybody named Jesus, nor any miracle worker being crucified and resurrected in Jerusalem, let alone an eclipse, an earthquake, or graves opening and resurrected Jewish saints walking the streets of Jerusalem. Why? Philo's total silence about a Jesus is deafening!

[Ouroboros]

Philo's total silence about a Jesus is deafening!

My point exactly.

 

It would be like Rush Limbaugh never talk, write or mention Bush.

[Mythra]

The Thallus quote is an oversimplified phony, too. We don't really know what Thallus wrote, or when he wrote it.

 

Most of what we think we know about Thallus was from what someone else wrote about it.

 

Here is the quote of a quote of a quote about Thallus that is probably what christians refer to, in establishing this "proof"

 

From the 3rd Century. From the christian chronicler Julius Africanus. Africanus' quote comes to us from a ninth century monk named George Syncellus.

 

"This event followed each of his deeds, and healings of body and soul, and knowledge of hidden things, and his resurrection from the dead, all sufficiently proven to the disciples before us and to his apostles; after the most dreadful darkness fell over the whole world, the rocks were torn apart by an earthquake, and much of Judaea and the rest of the land was torn down. Thallus calls this darkness an eclipse of the sun in the third book of his Histories, without reason, it seems to me. For... how are we to believe that an eclipse happened when the moon was diametrically opposite the sun?"

 

This quote has at least one passage that scholars believe to be an interpolation. (an insertion by a later writer)

 

You have to be really careful when reading anything that is a "direct quote" from an early christian writer, or anything that is a "direct quote" from a non-christian writer that has been passed down through christian hands.

 

It was not an uncommon practice for the "apologists" of the first few centuries to "create evidence" through creative writing techniques. This is pretty common knowledge amongst the scholars and historians who make their living sorting through this stuff.

[Mythra]

Does any of this count for those skeptic of Jesus' actual existance? Or does it take more?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It takes more.

[seeker]

My point exactly.

 

It would be like Rush Limbaugh never talk, write or mention Bush.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hans I've sent you a few private messages...have you got them?

[Mythra]

Christians would have you believe that everyone who wrote anything in the first or early second century knew all about Jesus. Here are some more writers that you won't see chrisitians quoting. Cause none of these guys ever heard of Jesus of Nazareth.

 

Plutarch. (Greek) 46 - 119 CE. Travelled Rome to Alexandria. Wrote "Moralia", a treatise on ethics and morals.

 

Juvenal. (Roman) 55 - 127 CE. Satirical poet.

 

Martial. (Latin) 38-103 CE. Poet, wrote about satire about Roman life.

 

Epictetus. (Greek) 55-135 CE. Stoic philosopher

 

Quintilian (Latin) 39 - 96 CE. Rhetorical writer and teacher.

 

Pliny the Elder (Roman) 23 - 79 CE. Wrote about natural history.

 

Seneca. (Roman) 4 BCE - 65 CE. Prominent Roman philosopher.

 

 

You won't find christians telling you about these dudes. But, just like the Fox News Channel, we try and stay fair and balanced here.

 

 

 

Is there an emoticon of a little dude dodging rotten tomatoes as they're being hurled at his head?

[Ouroboros]

Seneca.  (Roman)  4 BCE - 65 CE.  Prominent Roman philosopher. 

Just to mention that there is the alleged letter from Paul to Seneca, that has been proven to be a fraud. (IIRC)