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Creation Vs "facts"


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It basically boils down to two "answers", goddidit or I don't know.

 

The latter IDK, is where science currently stands with the sequence of;

 

Big Bang

Abiogenesis

Evolution

 

The latter two have already been replicated and or observed under laboratory conditions giving credence to both. For the BB we have the Hadron Collider which may help us understand more of the hypothesis of the BB.

 

All three do have evidence outside mere speculation. The BB we see an expanding universe suggesting an outer movement from a central origin. The universe is not organized as the woo woos would want you to believe, it is chaos on a grand scale.

 

Their creation story conflicts and is out of sequence. Their buybull derives the opinions of goatherders and how they understood the universe with their limited scientific observations.

 

I am sure it is not only our generation that has been confronted with the "where do babies come from", with the lie of the stork, leading onto "where did we all come from" as they get older.

 

I bought and taught my kids from a kiddies buybull as that is what I was exposed to at that age. Most woo woos memories of the creation myth remain at this level and do not see the conflicting creation accounts, the two versions of the 10 commandments making up 17 in total as anything abnormal. Mommy and Daddy taught me so it must be true.

 

I am fortunate that my family has followed me to the "dark side" with only my wife and daughter having small residual non dogmatic beliefs, no church attendance by anyone thank teh lard fer that. I digress.

 

The YEC's from woowoodumb have elected to turn off that part of enquiry and accept the all encompassing explanation of goddidit whereas us heathen may choose a replacement "theology" of the three points above but then either accept the IDK placeholder answer or evolve to where I am IDC. Life is too short to waste time on trying to fathom out our origins and lack of immortality.

 

I imagine that death would be very similar to anesthesia or a deep sleep w/o dreams. There will be no conscious knowledge that you are dead apart from the latent firing of neurons as your brain is starved of blood/oxygen leading to a "my life flashed before my eyes" moment and possibly and acute awareness of your surroundings at the time of death. All the NDE testimonies bear witness to this facet. The lucky few to be revived by CPR may or may not recall what transpired in those few seconds or minutes. I do think that the folk who have had visions of hell etc. their brains were playing back a reality they had created in their own minds, like wise the folk who moved towards the light.

 

It is this "scary" part of our existence that drives the need to know of what happens when we die. So for there to be a hereafter, man had to invent gawd. Man has invented many gods and it is only because the Roman empire found the mindfuck control of the jewish religion appealing that they stole it, built upon it and merged it with their own Greco/Roman myths and gave us what we now know as christianity today.

 

IIRC, Constantine was both Emperor and Pope at the same time. The Nicene council finally decided just what books they had invented would be canonized and form what we have today as the Wholly Babble. I used to believe that this was gawds plan to spread his wurd via the sophisticated Roman empire and somehow managed to preserve it in spite of their obvious tarnishing of the religion. Back then why did gawd not appear to the Romans as jeebus then never entered my mind, the lowly king come servant image worked just fine back then.

 

Research led to finding a plethora of messiahs from other cultures that not only predated jeebus but had essentially the same concocted stories of virgin birth and 12 dudes as disciples.

 

I read somewhere that the reason we have so many conflicting stories in the OT is that there was two documents before the Torah came about. IIRC the Torah is only the 1st 5 books of the OT, they have another name for the rest of the Jewish bible. At the time of Jeremiah, there was a concerted effort to merge these two documents and give us what we have today as the OT. Research will show that the scribes were not that astute in their copying methods as the woo woos would like you to believe. Errors exist in their own texts and we all know that the NT was fiddled with quite extensively. This apologetic is to try and sweep under the carpet the the challenges to the illusion of inerrancy. No matter how hard they try, this is just not possible.

 

If the buybull is NOT the inerrant word of god, then the entire foundation of their belief system comes tumbling down like a house of playing cards. They have however managed to convince the masses in spite of this that the inerrant wurd is true as the "original" documents which even the Vatican do not possess were without error. Add to that the parts of the buybull that are to be taken metaphorically allegorical, then it does seem to work on the less educated or should I say unread followers.

 

So we have devolved to beliefs that the creation story is only allegorical, the fludd was a local event, the exodus of the jews, unrecorded by the Egyptians, was something else and many other biblical stories that by today's scientific scrutiny are totally implausible but the birth and death of christ was/is real. This I find very strange as when one states the creation story allegorical, how then does jeebus fit into the picture?

 

Moses allegedly wrote the 5 books of the Torah and was not around or had any records to work off regarding the creation myth and flood and Abraham etc. It is very likely this was transcribed to text as prior to that, we merely had word of mouth. We know moses was a bit of a dork and much surrounding his existence is probably also mythological, one wonders why gawd would choose a stutterer, murderer and someone clearly indecisive as his messanger of his perverted message? Why not use his brother Aron to start off with, he seems more rooted in reality apart from the calf debacle. Mind you for slaves, they sure had a shitload of gold with them to be able to make an idol eh? Not to mention all the gold and precious gems when the made their first temple in the desert, the portable one, and the ark of the covenant. They sure evolved some brilliant skills trading whateverIdon'tknow with passers by for gold, maybe they were the first Realtors selling sand to the nomads - who knows. :shrug:

 

If you studied the OT and the mythical exodus, then gawd appeared 1st hand to the escapees and scared them shitless as pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day. Then gawd keeps them in the wilderness for 40 years on a journey that should by all accounts only take IIRC, 7-9 days. I mean, folk that were involved in the building of the pyramids if we can believe the chronicles of Charlton Heston in the 10 commandments, that these wise sages had insight into the mind of god, the universe and its origins but could not navigate east to the promised land by merely observing their shadows. Surely some of these folk were assistants to the then surveyors of the day in Egypt and should have picked up a tip or two in trigonometry, stolen at least one sextant of the day seeing it is established the Egyptians had some stellar knowledge and how the universe ticked.

 

We are then left with the musings of wise sages about how gawd thinks which by all accounts were moses' own opinions. He of course had been accepted as the spokesman for gawd by the people so he pretty much could say WTF he liked after a short hike up and down the closest hillock.

 

Exodus 20:19 (King James Version)

 

19And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

 

 

The entire law is preceded by "And the LORD said unto Moses..." so the account is at best 3rd hand.

 

Further meanderings in the OT and research will bring you to the conclusion that many of these stories are bogus and probably never happened the way it was described. The fantastical elements were add-ons to give credibility to superior warriors who ironically were very easily dispatched from Jerusalem in 100 CE by an occupying force w/o the lard on their side.

 

The idea of 3000 concubines of king sol, is ridiculous. It is said that women confined to close quarters, the cycles eventually synchronize so he must have had real close up experiences of bulk PMS. :grin: Other than that, it would take just over eight years just to have one night with each of them. This btw was pointed out to me by a woman.

 

I always asked my xian dad why the jews were so persecuted and in particular the holocaust. His reply ironically came from teh buybull.

 

24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person.[d] You see to it.

25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” (Matt 27)

 

Hence the "curse" they placed upon themselves and their offspring - nice eh? Does that let hitler off the hook?

 

The reason I go to the OT is that xianity is NOT founded on the gospels. It is a Pauline doctrine laced gratuitously with much of the OT. In fact very little from the synoptic gospels is preached in churches and Paul's shit plays a far huger role in confining the masses to their ignorance. The only time jeebus gets a mention is at easter and christmas. jeebus of the synoptics, comes across too nice for the real christians, they need the jeebus of revelation and his big daddy image of the OT which Paul happened to accommodate. He was a self proclaimed apostle and his Damascus road experience somehow conveniently leads him not to one of the legitimate disciples but to a Roman centurion. Saul of Tarsus was in cahoots with the Roman empire, a pharisee and probably someone the disciples had no time for seeing he was the one that looked upon as Stephen was stoned to death. Didn't he have to exit via a window on his first expedition to the Jews?

 

Everything the folk in woowoodumb follow today is based wholly on the back of Paul's teachings, I mean he wrote 90% of the NT didn't he?

 

The red letter bible folk have tossed Paul out on his ear proclaiming him a false apostle and their arguments pretty sound. Trouble is what is inerrant then? They only use the synoptics and revelation.

 

This was one of the sects I ran across on my journey out.

 

One need only observe what the woo woos here cite as their proof texts to see I am right on the money, the gospels are only milk for new converts aka bait and switch. The "real meat" comes from Paul's crap and fits more in line with human nature.

 

Maybe the type of christianity jeebus allegedly taught would be palatable to most seeing it actually is derived from many aspects of secular humanism. That however does not blend well with human nature as there are by default leaders and followers - call it a chain of command.

 

One need only look at any church today and see this heirarchy of leaders with the pastor at play and selection of elders has fuckall to do with spiritual wisdom but more on sucking up to said pastor. Few elders I encountered had any knowledge of the bible of merit that is. Hell I taught men older than me and that was w/o any formal training. Just goes to show, this is all a scam and unfortunately so many folk buy into it.

 

Maybe my future grandchildren will find a world w/o this madness. One can only hope. :shrug:

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It basically boils down to two "answers", goddidit or I don't know.

 

The latter IDK, is where science currently stands with the sequence of;

 

Big Bang

Abiogenesis

Evolution

 

The latter two have already been replicated and or observed under laboratory conditions giving credence to both. For the BB we have the Hadron Collider which may help us understand more of the hypothesis of the BB.

 

 

 

In Creationist eyes, Evolution is a 'IDK' subject. In Science though it's not. It is known how it works at the micro and macro levels. We know that speciation happens. Do they know how all speciation occurred? No. Do they know how first life started? Yes, for the most part with several experiments over the past and last few years that generated amino acids and even the elements of RNA. Life was inevitable.

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It basically boils down to two "answers", goddidit or I don't know.

 

The latter IDK, is where science currently stands with the sequence of;

 

Big Bang

Abiogenesis

Evolution

 

The latter two have already been replicated and or observed under laboratory conditions giving credence to both. For the BB we have the Hadron Collider which may help us understand more of the hypothesis of the BB.

 

 

 

In Creationist eyes, Evolution is a 'IDK' subject. In Science though it's not. It is known how it works at the micro and macro levels. We know that speciation happens. Do they know how all speciation occurred? No. Do they know how first life started? Yes, for the most part with several experiments over the past and last few years that generated amino acids and even the elements of RNA. Life was inevitable.

Probably missed the nuance I did not mention. Where theists adhere to godditit as the final answer, science in spite of the known observed evidence still seeks to build upon this to provide a better answer - if that makes sense?

 

If science already had THE answer, research would no longer be necessary, we both know that is not true.

 

I do however agree with your take.

 

Peer review of science lead to similar answers if not exactly the same, theism leads to 30000+ different answers/opinions

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Probably missed the nuance I did not mention. Where theists adhere to godditit as the final answer, science in spite of the known observed evidence still seeks to build upon this to provide a better answer - if that makes sense?

 

If science already had THE answer, research would no longer be necessary, we both know that is not true.

 

I do however agree with your take.

 

Peer review of science lead to similar answers if not exactly the same, theism leads to 30000+ different answers/opinions

 

Yeah, sorry, I did. I'm autistic, very high functioning, but still autistic.

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I've heard creationists even claim that God "planted" fossils and other scientific evidence to fool atheists like me into believing the wrong thing.

 

That's a really strange God that wants to "fool" people into not worshipping him.

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I've heard creationists even claim that God "planted" fossils and other scientific evidence to fool atheists like me into believing the wrong thing.

 

That's a really strange God that wants to "fool" people into not worshipping him.

 

 

Yeah - that nasty ol' God is always hardening our hearts against him.

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Take a look at M Theory, it has a lot to say about pre-Big Bang, and possible reasons for the Big Bang (like other universes colliding to create ours and infinite sets of universes going back long before our universe came into existence).

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I've heard creationists even claim that God "planted" fossils and other scientific evidence to fool atheists like me into believing the wrong thing.

 

That's a really strange God that wants to "fool" people into not worshipping him.

 

Well, that old Yahweh always was pretty dumb.

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