I Want To Thoroughly Debunk This

[Paine]

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY SHEPHERDS WHO THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT AND THAT SLAVERY WAS COOL..and the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" WAS DECIDED ON BY MAJORITY VOTE AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA IN AD 325.

 

What the fuck else do you NEEEED?

 

DISPUTE THE SOURCE AND REJECT THE PREMISE THAT THE BIBLE IS ANYTHING BUT A FOLKTALE, then every letter it contains becomes illegitimate....no need to "DISPROVE" or "DEBUNK" anything. ....!!!!!!!

 

***next question****

[Ro-bear]

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY SHEPHERDS WHO THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT AND THAT SLAVERY WAS COOL..and the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" WAS DECIDED ON BY MAJORITY VOTE AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA IN AD 325.

 

What the fuck else do you NEEEED?

 

DISPUTE THE SOURCE AND REJECT THE PREMISE THAT THE BIBLE IS ANYTHING BUT A FOLKTALE, then every letter it contains becomes illegitimate....no need to "DISPROVE" or "DEBUNK" anything. ....!!!!!!!

 

***next question****

 

That's what I like about you. Cut straight to the heart of the matter. Hell, yes!

[★ Citsonga ★]

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY SHEPHERDS WHO THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT AND THAT SLAVERY WAS COOL..and the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" WAS DECIDED ON BY MAJORITY VOTE AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA IN AD 325.

 

What the fuck else do you NEEEED?

 

DISPUTE THE SOURCE AND REJECT THE PREMISE THAT THE BIBLE IS ANYTHING BUT A FOLKTALE, then every letter it contains becomes illegitimate....no need to "DISPROVE" or "DEBUNK" anything. ....!!!!!!!

 

***next question****

 

While that is completely true, don't forget that everyone comes from a different background. That approach may work for some, but showing internal inconsistencies can work for others who wouldn't be convinced by your approach. Granted, neither approach will work with the majority of the indoctrinated, but both can work in some cases with different types of people. But, yeah, you're spot on in your point.

[★ Citsonga ★]

OK, I took a look at #6:

 

(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.

 

Let's also keep in mind what Hugh said in his opening remarks:

 

The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.

 

So, the prophecies have to be 100% accurate, right? I fully agree. Now then, let's take a look at a couple of the verses in claim #6:

 

JEREMIAH 51

²⁶

And they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations; but thou shalt be desolate for ever, saith the Lord.

⁴³

Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land wherein no man dwelleth, neither doth any son of man pass thereby.

 

Note that this claims that Babylon "shalt be desolate forever" (ESV: "a perpetual waste") and that "neither doth any son of man pass thereby." Is that what we have with Babylon? No, absolutely not. Babylon has been partially rebuilt upon by Saddam Hussein, and the US Military built a base on part of Babylon. You can see pictures of the reconstruction and American troops in Babylon here: http://en.wikipedia....#Reconstruction

 

Clearly, the prophecy that Babylon would be left a permanent wasteland that nobody would pass through has NOT been fulfilled. As such, the prophecy was not 100% accurate, and therefore this cannot be a prophecy from God (in fact, Hugh's own reasoning would suggest that it's a satanic prophecy).

[★ Citsonga ★]

OK, how about #7?

 

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.

 

Here's the passage referenced:

 

JEREMIAH 31

³⁸

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

³⁹

And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.

⁴⁰

And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

 

I see nothing in these verses or the whole chapter that specifies an exact sequence of reconstruction. (Even if it did have a specific sequence, or if there is something somewhere else that has a specific sequence, then that alone proves nothing about divine inspiration. After all, those involved in the rebuilding process could have very easily used the "predictions" as a guide, manually and intentionally causing the process to follow the Biblical text.)

 

There are other problems with the claim that our modern State of Israel is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy, due to prophetic claims elsewhere. The following is another excerpt from the letter I wrote to my parents last year:

 

Modern State of Israel

 

Here I want to turn my attention to the claim that prophecy was fulfilled when Jews returned to their homeland in 1948. While this particular issue doesn't directly pertain to my loss of faith, it is often cited as alleged "proof" that the Bible was inspired by God, and as such I think the matter deserves some attention.

 

We read, "And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country" (Ezekiel 34:13). Further on we see, "Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Eze 37:21-22). Passages like these are cited as having been fulfilled with the rebirth of Israel in 1948. But is this claim legitimate? Let's dig deeper.

 

Ezekiel goes on to say, "And David my servant shall be king over them" (Eze 37:24). Yet the new Israel does not have a king, it has a president. In addition, that president is not David, nor has he been established as a descendant of David (a fair interpretation of the prophecy). In fact, in Christianity it is Jesus who is supposedly given "the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:32), but is Jesus reigning in Israel now? Clearly, this is not fulfilled.

 

We also read, "And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel" (Eze 37:28), yet what heathen knows such a thing? Unless we categorize Christians as heathens, this is also unfulfilled.

 

Ezekiel also says, "The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand" (Eze 37:15-17). It goes on to explain, "Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and hey shall be one in mine hand" (Eze 37:19).

 

There we see a clear reference to "the tribes of Israel," yet the tribes of Israel remain completely undefined in modern Israel. There is no traced lineage establishing all 12 tribes. In fact, it was the Jews who returned to Israel. The term "Jew" is ultimately derived from a Latin word that means "Judean," or "from the land of Judea." If those who returned to Israel really were Jews (literally "Judean"), then that would mean that what we have represented in Israel today is people of the southern kingdom of Judah, and not those of the northern (and larger) kingdom of Israel (after the original kingdom of Israel was split in two). Therefore, the prophecy of joining all the tribes of the two kingdoms back together remains unfulfilled.

 

Another interesting point is that modern Israel does not have all the land that was supposedly part of the kingdom of Israel during the reigns of David and Solomon, and therefore the nation has not been fully restored.

 

While I have not extensively studied the current State of Israel, these points alone are sufficient to demonstrate that what we have in modern Israel is not a fulfillment of the Biblical prophecy in Ezekiel. Those who believe that it is a fulfillment of divine prophecy are simply engaging in wishful thinking.

[Paine]

THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN BY SHEPHERDS WHO THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT AND THAT SLAVERY WAS COOL..and the "INSPIRED WORD OF GOD" WAS DECIDED ON BY MAJORITY VOTE AT THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA IN AD 325.

 

What the fuck else do you NEEEED?

 

DISPUTE THE SOURCE AND REJECT THE PREMISE THAT THE BIBLE IS ANYTHING BUT A FOLKTALE, then every letter it contains becomes illegitimate....no need to "DISPROVE" or "DEBUNK" anything. ....!!!!!!!

 

***next question****

 

That's what I like about you. Cut straight to the heart of the matter. Hell, yes!

 

***deep curtsey***

 

I have a FEW redeeming qualities. ....maybe.

 

Thanks.

[midniterider]

 

Dude, it all depends on where one is coming from. I'm living proof that Bible fiction refuting other Bible fiction does matter. What opened my eyes to the reality that Christianity is mythology is the fact that it's based on an inconsistent collection of writings. I was so thoroughly indoctrinated with Christian dogma that I probably never would have come to my senses if it wasn't for the contradictions in the Bible. I fully agree that even if the Bible was fully consistent, then that alone wouldn't prove that it's true; however, that point is lost on those of us who were idoctrinated with the assumption that the Bible is infallible and that any outside "evidence" against it is a biased attack from a world not in submission to God. Simply put, the fact that the Bible is internally inconsistent is itself a strong proof against the assumption of biblical inerrancy, and that issue alone can help people such as myself realize that the Bible does not deserve to be on the pedestal that Christians put it on.

 

My indoctrination occurred for 10 years but unfortunately that indoctrination was trying to exist on top of 30 years of skepticism. So I suppose I wasnt an xian through and through and when I stopped going to church, Jebus only lingered for about a year before disappearing. So I don't have the 'since-birth' experience of Jebus being 'everything' in my life as you have. Now finding inconsistency in scripture would be good for me to prove to myself that the bible is false, but I dont think it would be helpful in debating an xian because they tend to twist scripture to mean whatever they want anyway.

 

What I was thinking is that I am not a bible scholar so if I just say, "The bible and christianity is bullshit" what more can an xian say? If, on the other hand I start going scripture vs scripture then the xian is going to be happy that I have 'read' the bible and may even think I believe the scripture I am reading that destroys his scripture even though I really think it's all baloney. Oh well.

[AKR]

So, Mom talked to the super fundy down the street and sent me the link below. Circular reasoning bullshit if you ask me.

 

http://www.reasons.o...liability-bible

 

Daniel's prophesy of the 70 weeks I think is the most deceptive. It has the appearance of truth on the surface. Anyone have any good facts for tearing this one up?

 

 

lol, thanks for the laugh. They actually have a probability factor for each one of those "prophecies" happening by chance, as if you can mathematically define the probablity of those things. And their proof for many of those fulfillments is the Bible. "derp, in this vague passage, we determined that it's claiming this is going to happen, and later in this book, it says it did! Now, let me get out my probability calculator."

 

Vague passages desperately attached to unproven Biblical events later in the book.

 

Puhlease. Debunking this is like debunking a fuckin superman comic book.

[roadrunner]

I recently got into a public discussion on youtube about the very topic. If you are truly a believer, the bible is written with you in mind. No generation is exempt. Throughout history xians have contorted scripture to accommodate a failed prophecy. Here's a list of failed end time dates, http://www.bible.ca/pre-date-setters.htm All of these dates had biblical justification.

 

Jesus himself said that this generation will not pass away until all these things have occurred. Most scholars feel a generation is about 20 years, however, when nothing happened a generation turned to 40 years. When nothing happened again, generations began to take on figurative meanings like the church age, etc. and ever since the bible has gotten more and more symbolic rather than literal.

 

Presently, prophecy is not coming from Revelation where it was originally thought, but surprisingly they were buried back in the Old testament the whole time....no kidding. This is not prophecy, this is hindsight. Example, after 9/11 people spun bible verses to accomodate the idea that those events were prophesied in the bible. Israel's current state is no different.

 

Also, when you have people like Bush carrying out decisions based on the idea that the bible is right this whole thing now becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. When the leader of the most powerful nation on earth refers to a modern day countries as Gog and Magog we have a problem. People in powerful positions should not be allowed to make decisions on foreign policy grounded in scripture, this is when I fear for humans.

[pratt]

have you guys heard of the Spirit of the Law and Letter or the Law? that was what I was thought some 20+ years ago.

 

when things cannot be explained literally, you are suppoedly to apply Spirit of the Law thing.

[★ Citsonga ★]

have you guys heard of the Spirit of the Law and Letter or the Law? that was what I was thought some 20+ years ago.

 

when things cannot be explained literally, you are suppoedly to apply Spirit of the Law thing.

 

Yes, but that is used in reference to how to handle the legalistic stuff in the law. Here's an example:

 

ROMANS 2

²⁵

For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

²⁶

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

²⁷

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

²⁸

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

²⁹

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart,

in the spirit, and not in the letter;

whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

I have never heard the "spirit of the law" argument being used in conjunction with prophecies. Beyond that, Hugh Ross's article that this thread is based on clearly states that prophecies have to be 100% accurate in detail, so there's no room for a "spirit of the law" weaseling-out attempt with regard to his claims of fulfilled prophecies.