scotter Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 As I was reading Matthew this question came up: John's disciples were not Pharisees, John's disciples were not followers of Jesus either (so they did not believe Jesus). Comments before my question: Few were mentioned about John's disciples after he was beheaded by Herod; some speculated the rest grouped with Jesus's followers. Some suggested they disappeared like the same manner of Sadducees after the fall of Jerusalem at ~70 CE. I stress 'speculation'. A theological technical question: If John's disciples did not follow and believe Jesus, were they saved? Add to the complexity, John's disciples questioned Jesus like the Pharisees on fasting. (Matt 9:14) If your answer is 'Yes' or ' No', please elaborate on it further. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsus Posted October 26, 2005 Share Posted October 26, 2005 http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/s.../johannite.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted October 26, 2005 Author Share Posted October 26, 2005 Thank you Bruce for the information. I await Christian's answers whether John's disciples, in Jesus's time and further down, were saved. One more: the three Magis visited the infant Jesus and presented to him gifts. The three Magis were astrologers, pagans (some suggested they were Zoroastrians). Did they get saved? A. No, because they were astrologers, the practised the evil craft (a nono in Christianity), they did not believe Jesus, despite they presented gifts to Jesus in revere. (Imagined opponent): despite they presented gifts to Jesus in revere when he was a baby? Jesus sent them to Hell? A. Yes, they were saved. (Imagined opponent): So Jesus granted exemption for the astrologers who practised evil craft because they presented him with gifts when he was a baby? Further down, independently speaking, it suggested that you do not need to believe Jesus to be saved, not talking about presenting gifts to Jesus or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diggin Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 Thank you Bruce for the information. I await Christian's answers whether John's disciples, in Jesus's time and further down, were saved. One more: the three Magis visited the infant Jesus and presented to him gifts. The three Magis were astrologers, pagans (some suggested they were Zoroastrians). Did they get saved? A. No, because they were astrologers, the practised the evil craft (a nono in Christianity), they did not believe Jesus, despite they presented gifts to Jesus in revere. (Imagined opponent): despite they presented gifts to Jesus in revere when he was a baby? Jesus sent them to Hell? A. Yes, they were saved. (Imagined opponent): So Jesus granted exemption for the astrologers who practised evil craft because they presented him with gifts when he was a baby? Further down, independently speaking, it suggested that you do not need to believe Jesus to be saved, not talking about presenting gifts to Jesus or not. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm glad you raised that question because it calls attention to the fact that tons of groups and subgroups of people then and since do not fit the simple and clear definitions of what "saving faith" is in the Christian era. My answer would be: many of the disciples of John eventually became disciples of Jesus, and were "saved" in the sense of entering the Christian "high calling" -- the upward call to heaven. Example: Apollos, who had been a disciple of John, then a disciple of Jesus who didn't understand the difference, and then a full-fledged Christian after Aquila and Priscilla explained some things to him. However, the mainstream Christian notion of only 2 groups -- the "saved" in that sense vs. "going to hell" -- is what is at fault here. Jesus came to bring salvation to all people, and he will accomplish that goal. It happens in two stages -- an invitational calling to a "little flock", and then the masses of mankind to be dealt with using wholesale, world-wide educational processes during the rule of Jesus as Messiah. At that time, all people who have ever lived will be saved from Adamic death and will come to an accurate knowledge of the truth, and will then be able to choose for themselves whether they like God's universe and would like to keep living on his terms. Jesus himself dealt with the matter of John's death before the Christian "way" was opened up, and stated that "he that is least in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than he". This means, I think, that John was among the "heroes of faith", righteous men of the previous era who will be shining lights here on earth during Messiah's rule, but were not part of the "kingdom of heaven" because of when they lived. Others in this group are Abraham, David, Noah, etc. ... mentioned in Hebrews 11. 1 Timothy 2:4-6 makes what I think is a clear statement at God intends to bring salvation from death and ignorance to all people. Won't matter whether anyone was a zoroastrian, or witch, or whatever. God loves 'em all and has a workable plan for them all, as I read the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkepticOfBible Posted October 27, 2005 Share Posted October 27, 2005 1 Timothy 2:4-6 makes what I think is a clear statement at God intends to bring salvation from death and ignorance to all people. Won't matter whether anyone was a zoroastrian, or witch, or whatever. God loves 'em all and has a workable plan for them all, as I read the Bible. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not according to many christians and not if you choose to ignore other scriptures Is it God's will that all people be saved? Reality of Hell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotter Posted October 27, 2005 Author Share Posted October 27, 2005 Thank you for the time in responding to this diggin. As diggin helped to point out, my thread is not so much really about the ultimate destiny of John’s disciples, the three Magis, I believe if they lived by their conscience, they were righteous. It is more to illustrate the problematic deficiency of fundamental Christianity’s bi-polar mentality. With due respect, God Himself is intelligent enough to know that there are things in this earthly world that are not dualistically black and white. Either Jesus, or Hell. And pritish’s links point to the sad facts that there are people living and feel comfortable with it. So diggin, the "carm" people won't tolerate your tolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
essence Posted November 19, 2005 Share Posted November 19, 2005 Thank you for the time in responding to this diggin. As diggin helped to point out, my thread is not so much really about the ultimate destiny of John’s disciples, the three Magis, I believe if they lived by their conscience, they were righteous. It is more to illustrate the problematic deficiency of fundamental Christianity’s bi-polar mentality. With due respect, God Himself is intelligent enough to know that there are things in this earthly world that are not dualistically black and white. Either Jesus, or Hell. And pritish’s links point to the sad facts that there are people living and feel comfortable with it. So diggin, the "carm" people won't tolerate your tolerance. Good questions. From what I've read in Matthew 24:13, Jesus is speaking of tribulation on the Jewish people within the days they were in, ("this generation"), and those people who endured til the end of that tribulation would be the same ones saved. And that was the generation which would not pass till all those things were fulfilled. Was there anything else expected than the destruction of Jerusalem? Matt.24:34 "Enduring" probably has its meaning in persecutions. "For all in Christ shall suffer persecution". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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