pandora Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 My husband and I are forumating a dialogue with his mother in law. She has recently gone off the deep end and is now finally trying to bring history instead of emotion into the debate. She sent us this website: http://www.everystudent.com/wires/whodoyousay.html From Campus Crusade for Christ. We need help formulating a response and case that Jesus did not claim to be God or that what Jesus is said to have said isn't necessarily so.... she is not super intelligent, so formal scholarly works are above her and she refuses to read "liberal" books. So, we need some simple internet sites and such to help us out. PLEASE help us... I know some of you have some of this already written up somewhere. I already search the archives, but there is nothing that I can find that is particular and simple enough for us to use. Where should we start? I am guessing that starting with the fact that the gospel writers were not eyewitnesses would help, and then going into church history and how the church eventually ended up at the Trinitarian POV, etc... but that is way too much info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 Mark was the first written book, he didn't claim to be God in Mark. Paul never claimed him to be a human at all. Paul Tobin's Central Thesis reviews the histriocity of the Bible, Jesus, Paul, the Gospels, everything... http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/central.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 Wow. OK. First off, prepare yourself for frustration and defeat. As you are no doubt aware, REASON doesn't hold a candle when it is blinded by FAITH. Since your husband's MIL (HMIL) is into the cheesy apologetics that is Campus Crusade, AND she isn't into scholarly efforts, I don't hold out much hope of convincing her of anything. That being said, my advice is not to waste time laboring what "Jesus" allegedly said about his alleged god-hood. To me, this is a non-issue and a red herring, since I don't believe there WAS a "Jesus" that said anything. I prefer to argue from the perspective of WAS THERE A JESUS?, as well as pointing out the OTHER crucified god-men that preceded this "Jesus". Your HMIL, like most Christians, knows absolutely NOTHING about Mithras, Horus and the rest of the pantheon. Open up her horizons by showing her how her beloved religion is all pagan and NOT at all "holy". She WILL, of course, deny EVERYTHING you postulate. That's OK. You aren't going for a knock-out punch. Just sowing seeds of doubt. Here is one site on Mithraism and Christianity. After softening her up with this info, then you can show her this Solar Mytholgy and the Bible link. I know this isn't what you wanted, but I believe that it is more vital to undermine her confidence in her source of information, the bible, before you'll be able to attack her steadfast belief in her church dogma. The bible is nothing but a forged text, contrived to deceive the unwary. Your HMIL WANTS to believe that "Jesus" said he is god. So she is clinging onto whatever teaching that supports this belief. You're going to have to knock out the traces from under her faith. Good luck, bite your tongue and take plenty of Tylenol for your future headaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 "More Than a Carpenter" by Josh McDowell is the little book that lots of christians get this argument from. Almost all of the biblical quotes that are cited as "Jesus claimed he was God" are from the book of John. A book that was written as much as 90 years after the time of the supposed death of "Jesus". A book that blended Greek thought and philosophy into the story of Jesus. A book that has whole chapters of verbatim "words" of Jesus. Often times when no one was even there to hear them. And, the words in the book of John that are attributed to Jesus don't even sound similar to the sayings attributed to Jesus in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. No one of any credibility claims to know who wrote the book of John. It wasn't attributed to John the disciple until circa 180 C.E. And you get the feeling that even then it was just biased speculation. Here is a pretty good article about the gospel of John, it's from the same website that MQTA quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 29, 2005 Share Posted October 29, 2005 This is a pretty good article by Robert Price, taking apart Josh McDowel's assertions that Jesus claimed to be God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 This is a pretty good article by Robert Price, taking apart Josh McDowel's assertions that Jesus claimed to be God. 99215[/snapback] WHOA FLASHBACK >THAT< WAS THE FIRST PAGE I found when I Started my researching March '04! Paul Tobin's page was the final page that I thought ended my research in April this year, until I found this Church of Reality and Jovial Atheist sites. They're a great addition to my massive collection of bookmarks. LOL CTRL D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 30, 2005 Author Share Posted October 30, 2005 That Price article is so perfectly applicable it is eery. Thank you tons! Hopefully this will get the ball rolling... now to find scholarly stuff that doesn't sound so scholarly so she can't say "They're arrogant... education makes you arrogant..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Wow. OK. First off, prepare yourself for frustration and defeat. As you are no doubt aware, REASON doesn't hold a candle when it is blinded by FAITH. Since your husband's MIL (HMIL) is into the cheesy apologetics that is Campus Crusade, AND she isn't into scholarly efforts, I don't hold out much hope of convincing her of anything.99208[/snapback] I think Grinch is right on with this assessment. To go even further, I would say it's a lot like trying to sober up an alcoholic or addict. You can argue till you're blue in the face and point to all the evidence you want, but unless they're willing to change nothing's going to happen. Just don't set yourself up for a disappointment. Religion is a drug and a crutch, just like booze or heroin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sherman Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 What about Jhn 8:58 ? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 31, 2005 Author Share Posted October 31, 2005 What about Jhn 8:58 ? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 99497[/snapback] What about it? Of course, this is a verse she is using to bolster her claim that Jesus thought he was God... I know this is going to be a futile endeavor, but my husband insists that she needs to examine her faith. (I think he wants her deconversion so that he can have a close relationship with her that doesn't involve "you're going to hell" and such). I would love to bring up Mithras and pagan religions to her, but we need to answer her issues first. When it is our turn to initiate a topic, that will be first, as it was one of the most convincing for me as well. There is just sooo much to cover..... I am still open to site suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 What about Jhn 8:58 ?Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 99497[/snapback] What about it? All you have to do is prove that Jesus said it, and you might have something. As far as most of us are concerned, the book of John is a novel. A world class excercise in creative writing. This saying is as authentic as "Frankly Charlotte, I don't give a damn." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Just butting in... we know about the contradictions in the Bible, but do some research on Kenneth Copeland, on TBN, where he says that Jesus never claimed to be God. To me, it's a prime example of Bible twisting. What do you want it to say?? I'm sure there are are other quotes that would show that he said he was... I need to be saved... which way is the wind blowing? On the other hand, I was saved once, so I must still be...ummm, I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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