aynalhub Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Hi everyone, I can't express how helpful this site and its forums were to me in my time of most acute religious crisis. If you are reading this and are fighting lingering doubts, fears of hell, please read on, maybe my experience will help you. When I first began to look around myself at church and realized that everyone there was participating in a big game of appearances and mutual make-believe, it was jarring to say the least. Although, when I was younger I was already rebellious and testing the limits, it was when I began to look around for actual supernature somewhere that I realized it: people are here because they don't know how else to feel good. I was a pentecostal believer, my father was, and still is a pastor, and my entire immediate family is born-again to this day. I would love to fit in, but had to finally admit what I'd sensed all along: I would be lying if I said I believed. I was drawn to literary criticism of the bible and stuff like the pagan savior cults at first, because they were the most dramatic examples of Christianity's actual worldliness, but, all that aside, there are a few basic ideas that I could never let go of, that have silenced even my own mother in debate. I put them here for anyone whom they might help. Please think about them! 1. Does Jesus save you, or do you save yourself by choosing him? When I put this to my mother, she objected to my statement that she thought she was "better" than other people because she had accepted xianity. But the truth is, this is the one flaw that I simply cannot reconcile....salvation does not make sense! The dialogue went something like this: "If Jesus saves you on his own, why doesn't he save everyone?" "Well, he gives us all a chance, but only some answer." "So, actually, you save yourself by being "good enough" to accept the truth?" "No, God chooses us to accept it." "So people go to hell because God chooses it?" "No, they reject the truth" "Because they're not like you, that is, of such a disposition to accept it?" "Right" "So you're saved because you're, by nature, better than others." Silence. Is anyone else flabbergasted by this inconsistency in the most important part of the doctrine!?!?! 2. If there's a hell, can there be a heaven? "Ahh, this hammock of silken gold and endless supply of Johnnie Walker Blue are great. Those poor suckers in hell!" Could you, in your heart, ever say that? When I asked my mother how she could "be" in heaven and know that others are in hell at the same time, I got the same silence as in #1. 3. Christianity is little more than a drastic extension of hedonism. You pretend to know something, feel something, experience something, deprive yourself of certain things, embarrass yourself witnessing, and alienate others your entire life for what...for Jesus? Hmmm...no, for pleasure. What is heaven, but unadulterated, eternal pleasure? Is pleasure all you believe in, is it the end goal of existence...hey, maybe. Would a Christian admit they are worshipping, seeking pleasure above all, for eternity, for themselves, damn those who are lost? Maybe not. Heaven is as much a bribe as hell is a deterrent...those tricky little ideas stick in the social brain like so much bubble gum. Like Nietsche said, the Christian has done the sickest, most spitting-in-the-face of life thing of all: rejecting it as broken, tainted by sin, to be eradicated and replaced rather than embraced and developed. YUCK!!!! 4. Last but not least, let's talk epistemology. How do you know it's God? I was born knowing nothing, but having a brain prewired for mathematical thinking. By pattern and comparison, I have learned to mimick other humans and do the various things I do. Beyond that, I am sure of nothing, like Socrates said so long ago, and that is all I know. Say Jesus came down in a beam of light and said "it's me, dude, I'm the one, alright? later!" and flew away, it would be dramatic, I would crap myself, etc. etc. But how could I know it was not a hallucination? A random meteorological phenomenon? An evil alien or God tricking me into wasting my life? Maybe I'm just crazy? Maybe it was an elaborate Hollywood hoax, perpetrated by a crazed billionaire... What I'm getting at is that my knowledge simply does not go back far enough for me to rule out any of those possibilities. That is the position we are in as waves in a universe of quanta, laws, and the remarkable life that has spread on this planet. We are not at the beginning, middle or end...we dont' know where we are. Even if we have a supernatural experience, we are not *equipped* to judge what has happened definitively. Thus it can not be our responsibility to make a decision like that, especially for the sake of a God who supposedly understands how it feels to be in our brains. He would know that our knowledge is too small to ever be sure of anything at all! I hope these 4 little gems of my philosophical life can give comfort so someone, who, like me, was so indoctrinated that it took a couple years after leaving to be at peace. Please be patient. When I step outside now, I look around at all that has assembled itself, and realize I am part of that assembly, and I am free to experience *real* magic: seeing the world without prejudice or a decision about its meaning or origin. The beauty of truth alone is worth your devotion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandora Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Wow... I can really relate to your thought process. In fact, I am forwarding your little ditty to my husband, who is currently debating with his mom over this very stuff. I found of particular interest the part about even if we had a "vision", how can we know we aren't deluding ourselves? We simply do not possess enough knowledge to be able to judge such an event accurately, although I would tend towards the seizure/hallucination/psychological mind tricks explanations. I can't say anything that you haven't said. Thanks for the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Excellent stuff. I'm engrossed in the http://www.jovialatheist.com site and still haven't finished all the pages on the Church of Reality site, I don't think that'll catch on though. The Jovial Atheist site though so so well written and organized, I highly recommend spending a few weeks on it. Will give you more fuel for your quest for truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Welcome aboard. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 ...1. Does Jesus save you, or do you save yourself by choosing him? ... 99443[/snapback] BULLSEYE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specs appeal Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I just have to say, great post! I've wondered about #1 myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anton P. Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Super and very profound. You've managed to hit mark head on and what you say makes a lot sense. Well put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 30, 2005 Share Posted November 30, 2005 Excellent post. Definitely one I wished I would have seen when I was still struggling. I hope it helps other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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