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Chiropractors


AlphaToOmega
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Rather than derailing the other thread, I thought we could discuss the pro's and con's here.

 

You're certainly allowed your opinion as anyone is' date=' but I would dare to bet I have a heck of a lot more knowledge on the training, information, and schooling that is/should be involved in chiropractic schooling. One of the most unfortunate things is that the old farts still have this mentality of not taking the time to finish research work and get it published, which leads to the idea of it being pseudo-science, and add in that far too many people still view it as a cure-all, when in fact it is only part of what can help someone. It has very real, scientific benefits that unfortunately are getting overshadowed by the shaman mentality that too many old-school chiropractors hold to. Hopefully the upcoming generations of chiropractors will work to change this, but they are fighting an uphill battle. [/size']

Here for example is a school for chiropractors Philosophy Statment

The basic premise of Palmer’s Philosophy of Chiropractic is that life is intelligent. Additionally, the purpose of the body’s innate intelligence is to maintain the body in a state of health and well-being. The Palmer view of chiropractic is that the body is a dynamic, self-regulating and self-healing organism.

 

As such, Palmer validates its orientation and focus on health rather than an orientation based upon symptoms and disease. Central to the Palmer philosophy is the removal of impediments to health through the correction of subluxations, thus normalizing the nervous system and releasing the body’s optimal potential.

 

 

Innate intelligence

 

Universal Intelligence

 

Vertebral Subluxation

 

 

In 1909 B.J. Palmer wrote that:

 

"Chiropractors have found in every disease that is supposed to be contagious, a cause in the spine. In the spinal column we will find a subluxation that corresponds to every type of disease. If we had one hundred cases of small-pox, I can prove to you where, in one, you will find a subluxation and you will find the same conditions in the other ninety-nine. I adjust one and return his functions to normal... . There is no contagious disease... . There is no infection... . There is a cause internal to man that makes of his body in a certain spot, more or less a breeding ground [for microbes]. It is a place where they can multiply, propagate, and then because they become so many they are classed as a cause." -- B.J. Palmer, The Philosophy of Chiropractic, V. Davenport, IA: Palmer School of Chiropractic; 1909

 

Its not that there are too many people who think its a cure all, it was devised as a cure-all by its founder, B.J. Palmer.

 

Chiropractic philosophy is based firmly in pseudo science. The fundamental belief that all disease stems from misalignment of the spine. The founder quoted above believed he could cure all disease and infection by adjusting the spine. That is simply absurd and has been proven wrong many times.

 

They still teach it as noted above.

 

If the new generation of Chiropractors are discarding this premise then they are not really practising as a Chiropractor. It is the basis of the system as developed by the founder himself.

 

Which creates a huge problem, how do we know who practices what?

 

 

 

 

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So yes, Chiropractor's do believe they can have a profound affect on health and wellness. To say that they believe that they can cure everything and the very little that you quoted of chiropractic philosophy show's a profound misunderstanding on your part. From the philosophical aspect look at the 33 Principles of Chiropractic as published by R.W. Stephenson in 1927. From here you can add that even if the nervous system is 100% free of interference if the matter of the body is flawed (or what you put into the body as building blocks is flawed) than proper healing would not occur.

 

As far as how chiropractic can influence health I'm including a link that has a synopsis of chiropractics effectiveness during the 1918 flu pandemic.

Chiropractic and Flu pandemic

 

Also before we can really continue this I want to make sure you have some understanding of mechanreception, nociception, and how they are affected when the bones of the spine are not moving appropriately.

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My current and previous medical doctors always recommended chiropractors to patients who would benefit from it. I know many people who have been significantly helped by chiropractic. Any chiropractor who claims spinal manipulation cures cancer or other such diseases should be jailed, but I haven't heard of any who do.

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Any chiropractor who claims spinal manipulation cures cancer or other such diseases should be jailed, but I haven't heard of any who do.

I have met such people in person. I have met with chiropractors who have, repeatedly, performed chiropractic on infants (~6 months) and toddlers (the justification was these children would grow up with "aligned" skeletons, never suffered from illness since starting treatment and would have stronger immune systems as adults). This is coming up on 20 years ago now. I'm vary wary of the entire field of chiropractic after watching people work on these babies.

 

mwc

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I have met such people in person.

I'm glad I haven't. We would have words.

 

I don't doubt there are quacks operating under the guise of chiropractic, as there are quack medical doctors. I just haven't run into any yet.

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As far as how chiropractic can influence health I'm including a link that has a synopsis of chiropractics effectiveness during the 1918 flu pandemic.

Chiropractic and Flu pandemic

 

Also before we can really continue this I want to make sure you have some understanding of mechanreception, nociception, and how they are affected when the bones of the spine are not moving appropriately.

 

OK. I read your link. No references whatsoever, just wild claims.

Claims that chiropractors can cure influenza no less.

 

Claims of curing bronchitis on a one year old child by spinal manipulation.

 

Without references the data is meaningless. Without correct statistical survey the data is meaningless.

That paper has no references and no data other than simple claims that they are true.

No way to verify the survey, no way to cross check the validity of the statistics.

Nothing but unsubstantiated unverifiable claims.

 

But, I note this:

“In Davenport, Iowa, 50 medical doctors treated 4,953 cases, with 274

deaths. In the same city, 150 chiropractors including students and faculty of the

Palmer School of Chiropractic, treated 1,635 cases with only one death.”

 

So I went to the school. I searched the entire site using multiple key words to find anything in influenza and the role of chiropractors in curing people from the deadly influenza virus.

I found nothing that relates the two. Not one single bit of evidence from the school itself regarding the statistics claimed in your link.

Surely the school would be publishing these fantastic results if they really happened.

They did have a few papers on influenza, legitimate medical ones but NOT ONE single hint that they ever used chiropractic methods and got success at curing influenza.

 

I'll also add my disclaimer, before we can really continue this, do you understand correct statistical analysis, unbiased data sources and double blind trials?

Statistics is not a simple field and has all sorts of traps for the unwary which can lead to incorrect conclusions.

Results obtained without the use of correct scientific methods is not worth anything in a scientific view and for good reason.

 

 

 

 

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I have met such people in person.

I'm glad I haven't. We would have words.

 

I don't doubt there are quacks operating under the guise of chiropractic, as there are quack medical doctors. I just haven't run into any yet.

 

You need to read the link provided by HRDWarrior.

 

Look at the main site, under free stuff to find stuff like this:

Spinal manipulation of babies is safe

 

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To the best of my knowledge the book itself has further references. Additionally there are more ways to look at epidemiological information than just double blind studies, but moving forward.

 

Now in line of double blind studies there is not a lot out there that has been published for specific disorders. One thing that did get published as a pilot study is chiropractic influence on high blood pressure. The study is called Atlas vertebra realignment and achievement of arterial pressure goal in hypertensive patients: a pilot study. It was published in the Journal of Human Hypertension in May 2007. Yes this is a pilot study and there are plans on expanding it to a larger controlled study.

 

Another study which looked at how spinal manipulation can enhance the immune system; Enhancement of in-vitro interleukin-2 production in normal subjects following a single spinal manipulative treatment. Published in the journal Chiropractic and Osteopathy in May of 2008. The study looked at T-lymphocyte response by measuring IL-2 production in people following adjustments, now they only looked at twenty minutes post and two hours post but there was a significant difference in comparison to the control group. A follow up was done to this in 2010 where they showed an increase in antibody production following spinal manipulation.

 

I do agree that chiropractor's should not claim to "cure" anything as what they do consists of finding areas of reduced joint motion and restoring that joint motion. Now if patients experience changes in health that may be linked to care chiropractor's should write case studies on these in order to validate funding for larger studies and that is a major short fall within that profession.

 

But again I would like to know what your understanding of mechanoreceptors, nociceptors, and joint motion are.

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To the best of my knowledge the book itself has further references. Additionally there are more ways to look at epidemiological information than just double blind studies, but moving forward.

 

There are but if it cannot be checked by the correct use of statistics and confirmed by scientific method what we are left with is guess work.

There may be a basis or there may not be. Anyone claiming correlation without eliminating other factors is simply not doing anyone any favours.

 

 

Now in line of double blind studies there is not a lot out there that has been published for specific disorders. One thing that did get published as a pilot study is chiropractic influence on high blood pressure. The study is called Atlas vertebra realignment and achievement of arterial pressure goal in hypertensive patients: a pilot study. It was published in the Journal of Human Hypertension in May 2007. Yes this is a pilot study and there are plans on expanding it to a larger controlled study.

 

Another study which looked at how spinal manipulation can enhance the immune system; Enhancement of in-vitro interleukin-2 production in normal subjects following a single spinal manipulative treatment. Published in the journal Chiropractic and Osteopathy in May of 2008. The study looked at T-lymphocyte response by measuring IL-2 production in people following adjustments' date=' now they only looked at twenty minutes post and two hours post but there was a significant difference in comparison to the control group. A follow up was done to this in 2010 where they showed an increase in antibody production following spinal manipulation.[/quote']

 

Oh I know there are certain well established benefits, lower back pain being one. There are others as well. Pain also hinders healing. Removing of pain thus helps a person to heal. Thing is there are many ways to remove pain. What difference is there by taking say codeine vs going to a chiropractor? That's the thing I'd like to know. How much is the result of pain relief vs the actual chiropractic implementation of that pain relief.

I can also say that when my back is out, I have digestive issues. I can pop my back through exercises and get instant relief. Like wise I can take codeine and get instant relief. I've noticed no significant difference between the two in the short term. Long term however if I increase my flexibility and muscle tone I get less and less days of having to do either.

 

 

I do agree that chiropractor's should not claim to "cure" anything as what they do consists of finding areas of reduced joint motion and restoring that joint motion. Now if patients experience changes in health that may be linked to care chiropractor's should write case studies on these in order to validate funding for larger studies and that is a major short fall within that profession.

 

On that we agree but it puzzles me why you would link an article that directly claims that chiropractor's can cure influenza.

 

But again I would like to know what your understanding of mechanoreceptors' date=' nociceptors, and joint motion are.

[/quote']

 

 

The former two very little. The latter a good amount. Joint motion is basically an engineering problem. Which as an engineer I tend to understand pretty easily. I can calculate loads and stress on joints and ligaments and muscles etc.

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I'm not saying that all chiropractic is necessarily unfounded, but I believe it is frequently abused and rife with fraud or at least is often sloppy on diagnostics (which can be really dangerous if it misses a serious condition that needs prompt treatment) and holds to a low standard of evidence for determining legitimate treatments.

 

If I'm not mistaken, physiatry is a legitimate specialty among medical doctors where similar techniques to chiropractic such as spinal manipulation may sometimes be employed when appropriate.

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