homospiritus Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 So now I'm at a point where I'm not sure whether there's a god or not. And I'm not talking about the christian god. I mean, I'm not sure if there's an Ultimate or not. If we were to reach the edge of the universe(s) would there be proof of an all-powerful entity that nothing else can surpass? I'm probably not making much sense here! I know that humans invent gods and give them human characteristics. I'm not talking about those gods. I mean, could there be The Forever Unexplainable Thing? The Edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 17, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted July 17, 2011 Technically, anything is possible. Practically, not everything is probable. Nobody could ever say with 100% certainty that some proposed supernatural entity or force doesn't exist since by definition it would be beyond our ability to detect and quantify. It would be outside of the natural world. What that also means to me is that it is irrelevant to our experience anyway. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I believe 99% of humanity is incapable of grasping the concept of creation without a creator and this is because we are taught that ignorance is more important than knowledge. After all, according to Genesis we received intelligence through eating magical fruit given to a little girl by a talking snake. Who wouldn't believe that? Some of our greatest leaders in history believed it and taught it as truth and the public, as gullible as ever, sucked it up for two thousand years and they still feed on that swill because it earns them a living to teach it to others. Self-described intellectuals of theology, and I have a hard time saying that without bile urping in my mouth, they all claim there is a god that made us because everything made has to have a creator. But that is not the correct thought. Everything made has a beginning, not a creator. The very expanse of the universe is so vast that humans stare at the night sky in awe that we are part of it. And we feel extremely insignificant when we consider the scale and vastness of the universe. In order to calm our fears, we express our being, our presence, our origin as being something specially made for a purpose on a much grander scale than the creation of the universe, we are specially made by a god for his or her own purposes known only to it/him/Her or them. Take your pick. When we choose to step back and look at our presence in the universe objectively, we learn that we are the product of forces of nature that come together to make life possible on our little itsy bitsy speck in the universe. The universe does not revolve around us but rather we are at the mercy of the very forces of nature that makes our life possible. We are in our place at this point and time in the universe because everything possible to make life work has come together to make life work on this planet. We exist on the end of an arm of our spiral galaxy at a distance we do not encounter the horrific affects of radiation from the center of the galaxy and our solar system has already absorbed the killer asteroids and debris left over from the time the sun and planets were made by the forces of nature. The remnants are seen and found in our own solar system. No god protects us from harm where we live. Other planets protect us from wandering asteroids or comets that could snuff us out in a single collision. We have not had a planet killer strike us in the history of humanity but it happened in the far distant unrecorded past. And to find that, we have to look at the geological record from millions and billions of years ago. To our minds, all of this is controlled by a unique intelligence we call 'god.' But it is not a god that protects us or creates us. The forces of nature created us and perhaps some day the forces of nature will destroy us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Technically, anything is possible. Practically, not everything is probable. Nobody could ever say with 100% certainty that some proposed supernatural entity or force doesn't exist since by definition it would be beyond our ability to detect and quantify. It would be outside of the natural world. What that also means to me is that it is irrelevant to our experience anyway. Aside from being little motes in a vast universe we would also be of no significance whatsoever to any ultimate power. We've invented the notion that we're the apple of god's eye to counter this loneliness. For a long time after I left Christianity I held on to the idea that there "must" be a higher power of some kind, even if it's an impersonal one. I still consider an impersonal Force type of ultimate power a possibility (though no longer a "must"), but like you I've realized that it would have no relevance to my existence and therefore I no longer expend any brain cycles on it. What has struck me as I've gotten more and more distance from Christian mythology is how ridiculously convenient all these stories are. That explains their endurance. They go right to the heart of the human condition. No one wants to think there is no great scheme of things, no big picture against which to rationalize all the crap in their lives that they can't resolve to their satisfaction. Paradoxically, though, letting go of the self-absorbed idea that your life must either follow your predetermined story arc or you will get a refund check for your trouble, is a healthy thing. Counter-intuitively, my life isn't about me. The bad news and the good news is that it's not about anything. It just is. Do with it what you will. This is known as "freedom". And like the denizens of a formerly totalitarian state that used to be in love with the idea of freedom but now are faced with the reality of it, we have to grow up into that reality -- and that responsibility. We're responsible for our lives, no one is going to help us with it or do it for us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 If there were any absolute proof either way, there'd be no conflict. No one can be absolutely sure. However, b ased on the evidence available and my own personal research, I've come to the conclusion that no such animal exists. Your actual mileage may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decafaholic Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I don't know. I honestly don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Pantheism/Panentheism is an interesting viewpoint. Wiki that shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 If we were to reach the edge of the universe(s) would there be proof of an all-powerful entity that nothing else can surpass? I'm probably not making much sense here! You're not making sense. There's no such thing as "the edge of the universe(s)." I know that humans invent gods and give them human characteristics. I'm not talking about those gods. I mean, could there be The Forever Unexplainable Thing? The Edge? The Edge is in U2. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 If we were to reach the edge of the universe(s) would there be proof of an all-powerful entity that nothing else can surpass? I'm probably not making much sense here! You're not making sense. There's no such thing as "the edge of the universe(s)." I know that humans invent gods and give them human characteristics. I'm not talking about those gods. I mean, could there be The Forever Unexplainable Thing? The Edge? The Edge is in U2. mwc http://watchseries.eu/episode/through_the_wormhole_s2_e2-100210.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadedAtheist Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 While I'm an atheist, I would say that if some sort of higher power exists it obviously hasn't shown any keen interest into our lives so we might as well get on as if it didn't exist. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 http://watchseries.eu/episode/through_the_wormhole_s2_e2-100210.html Watched it. I wish I hadn't self-edited to a shorter post earlier after having watched it. I subscribe to the "bagel" (from the show...though I prefer "doughnut" as an homage to Homer ) shaped universe. So living on the surface there are no edge's to speak of. All the models with edge's mentioned there isn't an "edge" that you can move beyond but instead they bring you back around to a point opposite of where you "exited" the universe. So there's no going beyond an "edge" to "outside" the universe. No such "edge" exists. It's not like pulling back a curtain and revealing the all-powerful Oz on the other side hiding just outside our universe. An edge would just allow you to move from one point on one "edge" to another point on another, opposite, "edge" and all indications are you wouldn't even notice the transition. It's unlikely but for all we know we live on such a boundary and have made the trip in our life times but we just haven't noticed thanks to the close proximity. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 If we were to reach the edge of the universe(s) would there be proof of an all-powerful entity that nothing else can surpass? I'm probably not making much sense here! You're not making sense. There's no such thing as "the edge of the universe(s)." That's not true. There is definitely an edge to the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 If we were to reach the edge of the universe(s) would there be proof of an all-powerful entity that nothing else can surpass? I'm probably not making much sense here! You're not making sense. There's no such thing as "the edge of the universe(s)." That's not true. There is definitely an edge to the universe. So now that we've all settled that...now what? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 If we were to reach the edge of the universe(s) would there be proof of an all-powerful entity that nothing else can surpass? I'm probably not making much sense here! You're not making sense. There's no such thing as "the edge of the universe(s)." That's not true. There is definitely an edge to the universe. So now that we've all settled that...now what? mwc Do you have any sources to cite that you think there is no edge to the universe? There is definitely an edge. We see that the universe is expanding. Expanding into what? A "void". When the universe was a singularity, it certainly had an edge, now it is just a bigger spherish object. The edge didnt just disappear, bro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosendarkness Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Pantheism/Panentheism is an interesting viewpoint. Wiki that shit. Hells yeah. Pantheists don't believe in a personal creator watching and looking out for you, an idea I don't care for personally because I don't see any evidence of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 any sources to cite that you think there is no edge to the universe? There is definitely an edge. We see that the universe is expanding. Expanding into what? A "void". When the universe was a singularity, it certainly had an edge, now it is just a bigger spherish object. The edge didnt just disappear, bro. See my post (#11) to hopefully end your confusion as to what I might be thinking...bro. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 any sources to cite that you think there is no edge to the universe? There is definitely an edge. We see that the universe is expanding. Expanding into what? A "void". When the universe was a singularity, it certainly had an edge, now it is just a bigger spherish object. The edge didnt just disappear, bro. See my post (#11) to hopefully end your confusion as to what I might be thinking...bro. mwc I see what you are thinking. I'm just saying that isn't how it works. sources: Me; I work in Astrophysics/Cosmology Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Do you have any sources to cite that you think there is no edge to the universe? There is definitely an edge. We see that the universe is expanding. Expanding into what? A "void". When the universe was a singularity, it certainly had an edge, now it is just a bigger spherish object. The edge didnt just disappear, bro. Very minor quibble, but I didn't think there was any void to expand into, but rather that all of spacetime is contained inside a finite but expanding universe. So there's an edge, but there's no outside, no void to expand into. Since I don't know much about it really, there's the wikipedia page trying to explain it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space "It is an intrinsic expansion—that is, it is defined by the relative separation of parts of the universe and not by motion "outward" into preexisting space. In other words, the universe is not expanding "into" anything outside of itself." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Do you have any sources to cite that you think there is no edge to the universe? There is definitely an edge. We see that the universe is expanding. Expanding into what? A "void". When the universe was a singularity, it certainly had an edge, now it is just a bigger spherish object. The edge didnt just disappear, bro. Very minor quibble, but I didn't think there was any void to expand into, but rather that all of spacetime is contained inside a finite but expanding universe. So there's an edge, but there's no outside, no void to expand into. Since I don't know much about it really, there's the wikipedia page trying to explain it: http://en.wikipedia....ansion_of_space "It is an intrinsic expansion—that is, it is defined by the relative separation of parts of the universe and not by motion "outward" into preexisting space. In other words, the universe is not expanding "into" anything outside of itself." Yeah, see, that really isn't true though. You have a misconception on what the term "void" is. The void is dimensionless. It is true in fact that the spatial dimensions we see were created upon the great expansion, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything out there. It just means we can't measure it. There are many theories that say there are other universes out there that banged in the same void we are, and will eventually touch us, etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I think our problem with whether our universe has an edge or not is all in how we are defining the words. I think you guys are defining them differently than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I see what you are thinking. I'm just saying that isn't how it works. sources: Me; I work in Astrophysics/Cosmology Fair enough. So you're saying that I can reach an "edge" then go beyond it? To something that lies "outside" our own universe? Not in a theoretical way or effectively impossible way (the amount of energy required to do so is up to, or more than, what is contained here). What I'm saying is what is plainly written. The universe would be much like a fenced in yard, I could just pull up to one of those edges, and somehow make my way through to whatever is on the other side? Everything I've ever seen indicates I would just land back into my own yard. Or if I could pull this impossible (for any number of reasons) feat off I would clearly die since our rules would likely not apply anywhere other than here. There could be nothing, no "being," "out there" that would be able to muck around "in here." But I'll accept that my take on my these things is not cutting edge by any stretch of the imagination. So feel free to enlighten me. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 But I'll accept that my take on my these things is not cutting edge by any stretch of the imagination. So feel free to enlighten me. mwc HA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 I see what you are thinking. I'm just saying that isn't how it works. sources: Me; I work in Astrophysics/Cosmology Fair enough. So you're saying that I can reach an "edge" then go beyond it? To something that lies "outside" our own universe? Not in a theoretical way or effectively impossible way (the amount of energy required to do so is up to, or more than, what is contained here). What I'm saying is what is plainly written. The universe would be much like a fenced in yard, I could just pull up to one of those edges, and somehow make my way through to whatever is on the other side? Everything I've ever seen indicates I would just land back into my own yard. Or if I could pull this impossible (for any number of reasons) feat off I would clearly die since our rules would likely not apply anywhere other than here. There could be nothing, no "being," "out there" that would be able to muck around "in here." But I'll accept that my take on my these things is not cutting edge by any stretch of the imagination. So feel free to enlighten me. mwc You wouldn't be able to go to the edge of the universe, it is expanding faster than the speed of light. But it is expanding into what is referred to as "the void". This is does not have spatial dimensions, or any kind of anything at all - that we know of. But our "balloon" has to be blowing up into something. You certainly wouldn't get teleported to the other side of the universe pacman style, though. You'd just ride around like going on the edge of a bowl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 You wouldn't be able to go to the edge of the universe, it is expanding faster than the speed of light. But it is expanding into what is referred to as "the void". This is does not have spatial dimensions, or any kind of anything at all - that we know of. But our "balloon" has to be blowing up into something. You certainly wouldn't get teleported to the other side of the universe pacman style, though. You'd just ride around like going on the edge of a bowl. I'd have to say I'm pretty much in agreement with all of this. The concept of being "teleported" has to do with visualization more than anything. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sciencemike Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 There is another subtle point here that was somewhat brought up... the metric expansion of space (regarding what space is expanding 'into') is very much dependent on the overall shape of the universe. If the universe has a positive curvature similar to a sphere and were closed, we would expect that the surface area of the sphere itself is expanding. In this universe there is no 'edge' since going around the entire topology of the universe will bring you back to your starting point. This is similar to what Vacuumflux was describing. The other two possible scenarios are that the universe is flat and open (no curvature), or hyperbolic and open (negative curvature), similar to what Noggy/mwc described. The first scenario is what is most backed by observation, in this case space would be expanding and cooling into a void of some kind (albeit accelerating). The second scenario has the same consequence in that it would be expanding into the void, but if space were expanding at an accelerated rate it would theoretically be impossible for light to travel from one 'edge' to another 'edge', though this depends on how fast space is expanding (also, this might be true for a flat universe but I may be incorrect). As far as the nature of the void itself, I would assume it to be very similar to intergalactic space only with even less matter (theoretically the quantum void has no matter, no photons, and is at a ground energy state). Quantum fluctuations would dominate as particle-antiparticle pairs spontaneously generate then annihilate as long as they obey the time-energy uncertainty principle ΔE*Δt <= hbar and that on average the ground energy state is maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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