Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 If anyone is looking for a version of Jesus they might like, try the one depicted in the Gospel of Thomas. If you're not familiar with the Gospel of Thomas, it is a collection of sayings allegedly made by Jesus. There are no actions depicted, only sayings. I will have to say that some of the sayings are fairly unusual (I was going to say weird, but that may be a bit harsh). Here's a link: http://www.westarinstitute.org/Polebridge/Excerpts/thomas.html It opens like this: These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded. 1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death." So, at the very beginning, this Jesus does not require faith or belief. Rather, for eternal life he requires understanding of what he says. I find that so superior to the Christian poppycock that it takes faith since faith can be and so often is abused by church leaders to enslave Christians in mindless devotion. I especially like the way it ends: 114 Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." 2 Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. 3For every female who makes herself male will enter the domain of Heaven." The Mary of which Simon Peter was complaining was probably Mary Magdelene who, according to other non-canonical gospels, was Jesus' favorite disciple (and maybe more than that ). I think Jesus' response to Simon Peter just drips with sarcasm. Way cool!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 And then there's this saying which has its counterpart in Luke. Here's the version from the Gospel of Thomas: 107 Jesus said, The (Father's) imperial rule is like a shepherd who had a hundred sheep. 2One of them, the largest, went astray. He left the ninetynine and looked for the one until he found it. 3After he had toiled, he said to the sheep, "I love you more than the ninetynine." And the version from Luke: 3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:3-7 In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus makes a surprising statement that he loves the sheep who went astray more than the ninety-nine who followed the shepherd. That tells me that the Jesus depicted in the Gospel of Thomas admires those who think for themselves and go their own way and are not conformists. But in Luke, the lost sheep is depicted as a sinner who must be brought back and made to conform to the Christian norm. And the rejoicing is in heaven because the sinner (lost sheep) becomes a conformist. Is there any wonder why the orthodox Christian religion rejected the Gospel of Thomas?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 This is really so funny Overcame, that you posted this because I just got through saying to myself, ''I want to read this 'gospel of Thomas' that people speak about''! Thanks for this - I want to hear this 'other' version of jesus. I like this jesus better already! But........female become male??? I'll go draw on a mustache right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 But........female become male??? I'll go draw on a mustache right now. Well, like I said, I take those words as the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas being highly sarcastic in counter to Simon Peter's statement that women do not deserve life. Simon Peter was apparently jealous of Mary because Jesus liked (loved?) her so much so Jesus effectively said, "Fine then I'll make her a spiritual male. Does that make you happy??" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 But........female become male??? I'll go draw on a mustache right now. Well, like I said, I take those words as the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas being highly sarcastic in counter to Simon Peter's statement that women do not deserve life. Simon Peter was apparently jealous of Mary because Jesus liked (loved?) her so much so Jesus effectively said, "Fine then I'll make her a spiritual male. Does that make you happy??" I'm so glad you told me this Overcame! I've been wearing men's clothing all morning!! The underwear are so uncomfortable!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 But........female become male??? I'll go draw on a mustache right now. Well, like I said, I take those words as the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas being highly sarcastic in counter to Simon Peter's statement that women do not deserve life. Simon Peter was apparently jealous of Mary because Jesus liked (loved?) her so much so Jesus effectively said, "Fine then I'll make her a spiritual male. Does that make you happy??" I'm so glad you told me this Overcame! I've been wearing men's clothing all morning!! The underwear are so uncomfortable!! Maybe you'll find boxers more comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 9, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 Real men don't wear underwear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 Real men don't wear underwear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 I found this to be interesting, but I haven't a clue as to what it might mean? 7 Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. 2And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human." Never heard anthing like this? what do you suppose this means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 This is full of wisdom, just like the bible...............Read this mouthful..................... 4 Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, 5 and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, 6when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, 7then you will enter [the (Father's) domain]." so I ask again.....how do I get in the 'father's domain'? What the frig was he talkin' about?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Try harder, Margee. Once you come to understand it all you will not taste death as per Saying 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Some easy to read commentary. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Some easy to read commentary. mwc Excellent! Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 9, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 An equally insightful holy text: I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly. I'm crying. Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come. Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday. Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long. I am the eggman, they are the eggmen. I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yeah man, non canonical jesus is the shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 An equally insightful holy text: I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly. I'm crying. Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come. Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody Tuesday. Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long. I am the eggman, they are the eggmen. I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob. Sweet jesuuuuuuus Florduh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted August 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2011 Overcame, I am trying to read this. Some of it is easy, some of it reads Chinese to me and some of it looks like it came from ''A Course in Miracles''. I know that you have dabbled in this book - in a nutshell - how do you see jesus different here? It looks like the same olé parables and wisdom (that you can't understand) he gave in the bible. , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Overcame, I am trying to read this. Some of it is easy, some of it reads Chinese to me and some of it looks like it came from ''A Course in Miracles''. I know that you have dabbled in this book - in a nutshell - how do you see jesus different here? It looks like the same olé parables and wisdom (that you can't understand) he gave in the bible. , Personally, I think it's impossible to fully understand all of it. Jesus is different in the Gospel of Thomas because of the way he is depicted. The Gospel of Thomas is a gnostic work, meaning a work in which gaining and understanding hidden knowledge is the key to all things (at least all things religious). The Jesus depicted here is vastly different from the Jesus depicted in the four canonical gospels because he is not a miracle worker, he is not an atonement for sin, and he requires no faith or belief in himself. What this Jesus asks is only that one try to understand what he says. You have undoubtedly noticed some similarities between this Jesus' words and some of the words that the canonical Jesus spoke. I find that extremely interesting. It means one or more of several possible things. It could mean that the author(s) of the Gospel of Thomas copied part of the canonical gospels. It could mean that the authors of the canonical gospels copied part of what was written in the Gospel of Thomas. Or, more likely in my opinion, the author(s) of the Gospel of Thomas and the authors of the canonical gospels copied from a common source of materials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Well, of course they copied one another. It's written in the patristic literature that these people attended the same churches. They weren't isolated one from another. Is that what you're imagining? That there was some "orthodox" church that sat in one place and some "gnostic" church in another and never the twain didst meet? Sort of like a good Catholic or Protestant not stepping foot in the others building today? Not so. They mixed and moved between themselves and this is what prompted many a nasty bit of writing from the "church fathers." This is why they often worried about the "proper" teachings being put out through their churches as opposed to any old teachings that were out and about despite their popularity. It was usually individuals, in charge, that were making these things an issue, and not the congregations (though they could play a role). Comparing this gospel, which is just a collection of sayings, to the canonical gospels, which are narratives, is not something that is really fair. I don't know how many miracles the canonical "jesus" performs in the red letter text of the gospels but I suspect it's rather low and those red letter sayings alone are generally cryptic and/or present a "different" type of "jesus" than the whole of the narratives offer (I know I've come across a site that had just the red letter text but it was several years back and I don't have the link anymore). As for understanding it...it can be understood if you have the information to understand it. They weren't wasting their time and money writing nonsense that could never be answered. It had a purpose. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted August 10, 2011 Author Share Posted August 10, 2011 Well, of course they copied one another. It's written in the patristic literature that these people attended the same churches. They weren't isolated one from another. Is that what you're imagining? That there was some "orthodox" church that sat in one place and some "gnostic" church in another and never the twain didst meet? Sort of like a good Catholic or Protestant not stepping foot in the others building today? No, I'm not saying this nor is any of this my point. My point is best said by Marvin Meyer who introduced and tranalated the Gospel of Thomas in the following work: "The Nag Hammadi Scriptures (The International Edition)" edited by Marvin Meyer. On page 133 we find the following quote: The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of sayings of Jesus, numbered by scholars at 114 sayings, that are said to communicate salvation and life. In contrast to the New Testament gospels, which focus upon the crucifixion and resurrection as they set forth a gospel of the cross, the Gospel of Thomas presents a figure of Jesus who does not die for anyone's sins on the cross and does not rise from the dead on the third day. Rather, in the tradition of Jewish teachers of wisdom, the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas utters wise sayings, one after another, and through these sayings the Gospel of Thomas proclaims a gospel of wisdom. Personally, I prefer the Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas over the Jesus in the canonical gospels. That's my only point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sciencemike Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Slightly off topic, but this is a new internet meme that's been floating around... showing what Jesus would be like in his not-so-canonical image as a party freak (which kinda reminds me of the Gospel of Thomas for some reason). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 I have a friend who owns a Gnostic bible and it is quite interesting, It has a lot of the books never put in all in one collection. I always likes Jesus but not the religion that evolved around him, a lot of what the Christians believe isn’t even what Jesus says but what they interpret it to be. There is also a interesting collection by Thomas called “the infancy of Thomas” it is apparently about Jesus life as a child and he isn’t the perfect little wonder the Christians believe he is. He ends up blinding his school teacher and some other “miracles”. so in here he is still magical Jesus but he isn’t perfect like the canonical bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovemybrain Posted August 12, 2011 Share Posted August 12, 2011 florduh goes commando...hmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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