Igakusei Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Okay, so given the surroundings here I'm pretty sure what kind of responses I'm going to get. But I thought that since we're mostly ex-Christians here from a variety of backgrounds, it would be interesting to see how different churches attempted to answer this question. This is something I never understood, even as a child. I remember always being confused by this. I was raised Seventh-day Adventist, and we were taught that when we die here on Earth it is only the "first" death. At the final judgement, the righteous and wicked are all resurrected and judged, and those that are found wanting then die the "second" death, which is eternal separation from God. If the penalty for sin is dying the second death and being eternally separated from God, then how did Jesus take that penalty from us considering that he was resurrected? The best I've ever heard was that he thought that he was dying the second death while on the cross, but thinking you are paying a terrible price is not exactly equal to actually paying a terrible price. Resurrection makes the whole thing seem like me going into Best Buy and paying a few thousand dollars for a computer, but then breaking back in three days later and taking my money back. Doesn't that sort of negate the power of paying the price in the first place? If God can just bend the rules like that, why did Christ even need to die in the first place? Anyway, I was just curious to see how this question is answered, since I don't remember ever getting one that didn't leave me confused. I imagine the problem is even worse for denominations that believe in an eternal Hell, since if the penalty for sin is eternal torment, shouldn't Jesus be burning in Hell as punishment for our sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted October 1, 2011 Author Share Posted October 1, 2011 I asked this on a Christian forum and got the following response: The wages of sin is death. Because we sin, the debt we must pay is death (spiritual death, second death, etc) Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!! However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God. The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good! Does anyone disagree??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noggy Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 There is no answer, its a biblical contradiction. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherJosh Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I asked this on a Christian forum and got the following response: The wages of sin is death. Because we sin, the debt we must pay is death (spiritual death, second death, etc) Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!! However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God. The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good! Does anyone disagree??? And Harry Potter returned from limbo to finish off Voldemort using the Elder Wand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 I asked this on a Christian forum and got the following response: The wages of sin is death. Because we sin, the debt we must pay is death (spiritual death, second death, etc) Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!! However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God. This answer is a good example of the kind of wacky world that apologists live in. God had to dress up in a trick or treat costume and pretend to die in order for him to change rules that he created in the first place. It also ignores that God told his people that he was not a human, it ignores that Jesus claimed to have a God (which wasn't himself), and contradicts God's Holy law in which a human sin sacrifice is illegal. The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good! Everything is always good in la la land, where pretense and wishful thinking replaces any form of rational thought. This is magical skyman-ism at its best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 To attempt to understand the theological implications of certain things, like the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, one must remember that the New Testament is not a cohesive, unified theological writing. Rather, the books of the NT were written by various authors in different times, with each having their own views of things. They were brought together over a period of several hundreds of years until we finally had the Bible that most agreed with. This whole hodge-podge understanding of the NT explains why there are so many denominations with differing beliefs and how each one can point to scriptures that support their views, despite the fact that their various views contradict one another. For example, I could easily argue that the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the only reason that people can have eternal life and that without Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection we would simply perish upon death. Hell is not the issue, only whether we have eternal life is at issue. It is in John 3:16: 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 But then someone else comes along and points out these verses: 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46 According to these verses, we all have eternal life, but the question is whether we spend it in heaven or hell. So, to answer your question did Jesus die the second death. Yes, if that is your theology then it can be justified by cherry picking scriptures until you find what it is you need to find it. But the answer is also no because for him truly to have suffered the second death, he could not have existed thereafter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 1, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted October 1, 2011 I was always told that the Jesus character was both fully God and fully human. According to the legend as written, he was neither. He was not the vengeful and violent (and don't forget unchanging) God as portrayed in the OT, and he never experienced death the same way humans are purported to in the story. Of course the answer is, "His ways are not ours" and "We can't know the mind of God, and we must not question His plan." I guess that's clear enough, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 The idea that Jesus paid "the ultimate price" is just silly. While I am sure dying by being nailed to a piece of wood for a few hours isn't pleasant, there are people who die every day in much more pain and agony than that. What about a kid with brain cancer who goes through months of painful surgeries, chemo, radiation, etc., and still suffers a long, drawn out and painful death? How is what Jesus went through worse than that? Also, kids with cancer who suffer don't get any reward at the end (like being resurrected to heaven), in fact if you are to believe Christianity they might end up burning in hell for eternity if they didn't repent and turn over their lives to Jesus. So Jesus paid the ultimate price, but today he's sitting in heaven all cushy and comfy, eating bonbons and getting waited on hand and foot? Makes perfect sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!! However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God. The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good! Wow - I think my IQ just dropped about 25 points from having to read that. It's sometimes hard to believe that people can actually be that stupid 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discern Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 If the penalty for sin is dying the second death and being eternally separated from God, then how did Jesus take that penalty from us considering that he was resurrected? Yeah it doesn't make sense. I never heard the question being asked in my church - probably for fear they'd be accused of blasphemy or being a backslider or something. I remember as a kid hearing church people carry on how Jesus died so that we could be saved, He suffered on a cross for our sins, yadda yadda - but I always thought I was missing something, because the guy was God and He just came back to life again so it was never any real loss. It always baffled me how someone could use that angle when preaching to the 'lost'. How empathic can a sinner be when they're told an immortal being died and came back to life again? And that He did it just for them? It's almost a case of "it's the thought that counts" - because there was never any real loss on Jesus' part. Jesus might as well have stubbed his toe for our sins, because that's about the impact dying on the cross would be for someone who is immortal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I asked this on a Christian forum and got the following response: The wages of sin is death. Because we sin, the debt we must pay is death (spiritual death, second death, etc) Jesus died the spiritual death for us so we did not have to, so he was thrown into the lake fire and was destroyed for all eternity!!! However, because he is God, even though he was destroyed for all eternity, he was able to bring himself back out of nothingness, because he's God. The debt was paid, God is still alive, all is good! Does anyone disagree??? Three days equal all eternity??? If that is so, I guess I've spent all eternity living through this hectic week. Maybe two entire eternities, given that from Monday morning to Saturday night (present moment) is six full days. And destroyed--annihilated, but able to resurrect because he was god. If they say so. It really must be convenient when one can without fighting conscience twist the rules of language and logic and reality--and definitions of words--to fit one's purpose. It must put the icing on the cake when same person can then gloat over us less endowed folk who must struggle to reconcile cognitive dissonances to fit with personal integrity, and the like. The ways of the fool are mysterious and past finding out. How's that for reverse metaphor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickG Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Anyway, I was just curious to see how this question is answered, since I don't remember ever getting one that didn't leave me confused. I imagine the problem is even worse for denominations that believe in an eternal Hell, since if the penalty for sin is eternal torment, shouldn't Jesus be burning in Hell as punishment for our sins? Oh I could make Christainity work. Throw the book of Reveleation away. In my twenty years as a Christian I evolved to Christain Universalism. I believed that everyone would eventually be saved. The accomplished work of Jesus Christ is what saved mankind. I grew out of that as well. Why would God need to kill in order to forgive? I realized that the whole sacrifice thing went back to an archaic Jewish practice of animal sacrifice. I have no Idea if there is a life after this one. I am sure that there is not a second death. Good question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 2, 2011 Moderator Share Posted October 2, 2011 Oh I could make Christainity work. Throw the book of Reveleation away. In my twenty years as a Christian I evolved to Christain Universalism. I believed that everyone would eventually be saved. The accomplished work of Jesus Christ is what saved mankind. I grew out of that as well. Why would God need to kill in order to forgive? I realized that the whole sacrifice thing went back to an archaic Jewish practice of animal sacrifice. I have no Idea if there is a life after this one. I am sure that there is not a second death. Good question. I like your simplicity Patrick! I need 'simple' answers that make sense to me!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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