Thought2Much Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 This is just a rant, so I'm not looking for real answers to what I'm discussing here. Why is it that in order to debate every Christian who is ignorant of science, American history, the history of the Hebrew religion, Greek history, Egyptian history, Islam, Hinduism, and even the Bible itself, it is practically required of the atheists to have a Masters of Divinity to argue the subject of whether Christianity is true or not? Christians can casually dismiss Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism without knowing a damn thing about any of them. Islam? That's the crazy fanatics with towels on their heads, right? Buddhism? That's the fat guy, isn't it? Hinduism? I dunno, something to do with cows? Yet, in order to debate a Christian about whether a bronze age guy loaded up a boat with every animal that existed at the time at the command of an invisible god, it isn't enough for us to say that it sounds like a fucked up fairy tale; no, for some reason we are the ones that have to know what the Bible said in the original Hebrew, what all of the cultural inputs were since mankind came out of the goddamn trees that led up to the creation of the flood story, and exactly how every bit of the science works that completely and utterly disproves that The Flood happened. Well, I'm sick of it. The history of the Jewish faith is of no interest to me. Biblical history is of no interest to me. I have no desire to be an expert in what contemporary events John was referencing in Revelation, as opposed to prophesying about our time. I don't give enough of a damn about Egyptian history to prove to idiots that the Hebrews never left Egypt in one great migration at any point in history. I don't care to read one single word of the bullshit on the Answers in Genesis web site to know what the opposing side thinks, since they may as well be talking about faeries and hobgoblins, for all their "science" is worth. I don't need to be an expert in the history of stories about faeries and hobgoblins to tell you that neither one exists. I am not learning any more about Christian fairy tales in order to disprove them. I have had enough. Let the Christians prove their own damn case. God does miracles? Show me. God created the universe six thousand years ago? Let him tell me himself. Oh, I'm not important enough for God to show me miracles or be spoken to directly? Then he's not important enough for me to worship. P.S. -- I have a great amount of respect for those of you that do know a lot about the actual history behind the Bible and Christianity. It's just that I don't care enough anymore to learn it myself just to disprove all of the ridiculous points of a ridiculous religion to believers who are far more ignorant than myself. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted November 23, 2011 Super Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2011 You're right. For the most part, they only need to remember what their preacher told them and if we don't believe it too, we must be prepared with doctoral dissertations they'll dismiss anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 i learn about christianity as much as i can becuase im so trapped in the cult and i need the knowlage to keep my sanity but your right christans are arrogant and proud of it. recently i debated a christian over the flood and i explained to him how it wasnt posible and he said... philipians 4:14 all things are posible with christ. the dude ddint even know that the measurements for the ark where in the bible and if that wasnt enough he then told me faith was better than fact or evidence. we must be the educated ones becuase it makes us the right ones and it makes us the better group. i understand your pain though especialy about their arrogance of other religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Just remember, the burden of proof is on them and the bible is not proof of anything, so the ball's in your court to just dismiss them and walk away if they can't offer you something better than circular reasoning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeasabird Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Brilliant rant, nice work!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 haha,,, great rant,,,, i think, i am too, learned much more than required to dispel the biblical crap,,,, i don't think i need to have full understandings of theories and prepositions of hawkings or hitchens or harris anymore to refute the christian positions,,,,, however, i would still enjoy Penn & Teller Bullshit series which i am now discovering to be entertaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 You don't need to be an expert to know that the Bible is a load of hogwash. Yet they still try to have "intellectual arguements" with you to try to convince you of the invisible man in the clouds. I grew tired of it a long time ago. Everytime I see my old pastors, and have to hear what they have to say to me, I just think, "wow... I had that mindset before? And those beliefs? Damn.... Maybe I was crazy!" I no longer debate religion, nor do I have an interest in believing in invisible flying men in the skies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted November 23, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 23, 2011 This is just a rant, so I'm not looking for real answers to what I'm discussing here. Why is it that in order to debate every Christian who is ignorant of science, American history, the history of the Hebrew religion, Greek history, Egyptian history, Islam, Hinduism, and even the Bible itself, it is practically required of the atheists to have a Masters of Divinity to argue the subject of whether Christianity is true or not? Christians can casually dismiss Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism without knowing a damn thing about any of them. Islam? That's the crazy fanatics with towels on their heads, right? Buddhism? That's the fat guy, isn't it? Hinduism? I dunno, something to do with cows? Yet, in order to debate a Christian about whether a bronze age guy loaded up a boat with every animal that existed at the time at the command of an invisible god, it isn't enough for us to say that it sounds like a fucked up fairy tale; no, for some reason we are the ones that have to know what the Bible said in the original Hebrew, what all of the cultural inputs were since mankind came out of the goddamn trees that led up to the creation of the flood story, and exactly how every bit of the science works that completely and utterly disproves that The Flood happened. Well, I'm sick of it. The history of the Jewish faith is of no interest to me. Biblical history is of no interest to me. I have no desire to be an expert in what contemporary events John was referencing in Revelation, as opposed to prophesying about our time. I don't give enough of a damn about Egyptian history to prove to idiots that the Hebrews never left Egypt in one great migration at any point in history. I don't care to read one single word of the bullshit on the Answers in Genesis web site to know what the opposing side thinks, since they may as well be talking about faeries and hobgoblins, for all their "science" is worth. I don't need to be an expert in the history of stories about faeries and hobgoblins to tell you that neither one exists. I am not learning any more about Christian fairy tales in order to disprove them. I have had enough. Let the Christians prove their own damn case. God does miracles? Show me. God created the universe six thousand years ago? Let him tell me himself. Oh, I'm not important enough for God to show me miracles or be spoken to directly? Then he's not important enough for me to worship. P.S. -- I have a great amount of respect for those of you that do know a lot about the actual history behind the Bible and Christianity. It's just that I don't care enough anymore to learn it myself just to disprove all of the ridiculous points of a ridiculous religion to believers who are far more ignorant than myself. I am saving this intelligent 'rant' to my 'favorites! Thanks Trapped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Why is it that in order to debate every Christian who is ignorant of science, American history, the history of the Hebrew religion, Greek history, Egyptian history, Islam, Hinduism, and even the Bible itself, it is practically required of the atheists to have a Masters of Divinity to argue the subject of whether Christianity is true or not? ~~~edit~~~~ P.S. -- I have a great amount of respect for those of you that do know a lot about the actual history behind the Bible and Christianity. It's just that I don't care enough anymore to learn it myself just to disprove all of the ridiculous points of a ridiculous religion to believers who are far more ignorant than myself. Trapped, this is a delightful and brilliant read to which I think the vast majority of us can relate! Don't worry, I don't have an answer, but I do share your frustration. It is simply impossible to have fruitful discussions with people who believe this stuff. It's as if they are inoculated against common sense and logic by the rubbish they hear in church week after week. Like you, I really appreciate those folks on this site who do know their stuff. I'm kind of like you in that I feel I've done my time (and thank goodness none of my degrees are in theology), so I am just walking away. Anyhow, LOVED your rant. I might just print it. It's priceless. Please write more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 recently i debated a christian over the flood and i explained to him how it wasnt posible and he said... philipians 4:14 all things are posible with christ. LOL!! That's so funny!!!!! Thanks for a good belly laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kittypaws Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 It's as if they are inoculated against common sense and logic Well put! I once tried to discuss this stuff with my partner (who isn't even a fundy) and when he couldn't come up with an answer, he resorted to "God's ways are not our ways" or something like that. He's intelligent but afraid to think about these things critically, for the obvious reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Isn't that the truth! And why did it take 15 years of studying Church history, biblical scholars and learning all this historical stuff in order to deprogram? Ughh. I really don't care about any of that. Makes me sick when I think about all the effort that had to go into it, just to be free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Thanks for the compliments on my writing, everyone. It's especially meaningful when it comes from a rather smart bunch of folks such as yourselves. I just write how I honestly feel about things while channeling a bit of Lewis Black. If you want me to write more, don't worry. It seems like something sets me off about once a week. That may have something to do with the fact that I still go to church on Sunday mornings. Don't expect me to write every week though, since a lot of the things that come up would be repeats from previous rants. Regardless of how well written they may be, reading the same complaints from me all the time would get pretty tiresome pretty quickly, I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Well, I'm sick of it. The history of the Jewish faith is of no interest to me... Christianity wants to be completely approachable for any random knuckle-dragger -- just realize you're a sinner, repent, accept the sacrifice of Christ, and you're done. "Simple faith" is a virtue. But do anything other than just swallow the Kool-Aid, hook, line and sinker, and suddenly you need a degree from a theological seminary to even begin to cope with it. And not just any institution -- one that they approve of. And then the baroque tap dance begins ... how many angels can dance on the head of a pin kinda stuff. It's quite the double standard. You're right to be completely bored with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 If you want me to write more, don't worry. It seems like something sets me off about once a week. That may have something to do with the fact that I still go to church on Sunday mornings. Trapped, I absolutely love your church stories. Call me sick, but it's so great to hear your stories from the trenches (church), without having to be there. My gigantic existential crisis is officially over with the dissolution of my faith, so I am certainly in the armchair, not the ring. My only wish is that I could attend church with you and your wife, so you and I could text each other during service or do some sort of signals to help each other survive. That would be an absolute riot! Yes, please keep writing. Maybe consider working on a novel or book. You know, "A Churchgoer's Guide to the Fundasty" or "Saints and Sinners: How I Single-handedly Subverted My Wife's Church". I'm sure you can think of even better titles! Keep it comin'....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 "Simple faith" is a virtue. But do anything other than just swallow the Kool-Aid, hook, line and sinker, and suddenly you need a degree from a theological seminary to even begin to cope with it. LOL!!! Isn't that the truth! It always bothered me that huge theological texts were needed to explain a single contradiction in the Bible. Should truth really be that difficult to wrap one's head around? I think not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 ...It is simply impossible to have fruitful discussions with people who believe this stuff... You don't have what reasonable people call a discussion (or debate) with morontheists, rightards, or the like. This is a clash of mindsets. I dare say (I'm sure there are exceptions among us ) that "we unbelievers" are trying to accept responsibility for our actions and our place in the world, and that we therefore accept that what we personally do or say - and how we treat others - does matter. Not so with morontheists and the like - they define their lives, their personalities, their everything centered around the one central virtue of obedience. In a discussion we tend to care for truth and for good arguments. All that doesn't matter at all to such people. The only thing important for them is to obey their Führer, and that generally includes fighting tooth and nail for him/her/it. They simply don't care if they are right, they only worry about dealing good blows to the enemy - you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted November 24, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2011 I was thinking of Trapped's rant this morning as I was getting ready for the day. I have not really taken on the title of 'atheist' just yet, but the simple fact is, the more I try to find 'the force' behind it all (and the different 'theories' that try to explain it) the more I lean towards atheism. I can't debate all the scriptures the way you guys do - I'm just not that smart, so I really don't have the ability to debate someone here in my own community. 1. I just simply don't believe that the bible is the word of god (or any scriptures from around the world) 2. I don't see any evidence for the reality of any all powerful, all knowing, all loving and all protective 'god'. That's it in a nutshell for me..............that's my 'debate'............ those 2 things............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 1. I just simply don't believe that the bible is the word of god (or any scriptures from around the world) 2. I don't see any evidence for the reality of any all powerful, all knowing, all loving and all protective 'god'. That's it in a nutshell for me..............that's my 'debate'............ those 2 things............ I think we share the same nutshell and all the bolt-on arguments I might in theory have over you because I went to Bible Institute once upon a time avail me nothing because no True Believer can get past the nutshell anyway. The most you can say is that if you can match them in their knowledge of theology and scripture it gives them a little pause, but not nearly as much as you might think. It's unthinkable / taboo that the Bible isn't an accurate sourcebook for Truth or that all gods besides their particular omnibenevolence are not false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted November 24, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 24, 2011 1. I just simply don't believe that the bible is the word of god (or any scriptures from around the world) 2. I don't see any evidence for the reality of any all powerful, all knowing, all loving and all protective 'god'. That's it in a nutshell for me..............that's my 'debate'............ those 2 things............ I think we share the same nutshell and all the bolt-on arguments I might in theory have over you because I went to Bible Institute once upon a time avail me nothing because no True Believer™ can get past the nutshell anyway. The most you can say is that if you can match them in their knowledge of theology and scripture it gives them a little pause, but not nearly as much as you might think. It's unthinkable / taboo that the Bible isn't an accurate sourcebook for Truth or that all gods besides their particular omnibenevolence are not false. high Five Bob! Said in a 'nutshell'! thanks for validating me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 ...It is simply impossible to have fruitful discussions with people who believe this stuff... You don't have what reasonable people call a discussion (or debate) with morontheists, rightards, or the like. This is a clash of mindsets. I dare say (I'm sure there are exceptions among us ) that "we unbelievers" are trying to accept responsibility for our actions and our place in the world, and that we therefore accept that what we personally do or say - and how we treat others - does matter. Not so with morontheists and the like - they define their lives, atheir personalities, their everything centered around the one central virtue of obedience. In a discussion we tend to care for truth and for good arguments. All that doesn't matter at all to such people. The only thing important for them is to obey their Führer, and that generally includes fighting tooth and nail for him/her/it. They simply don't care if they are right, they only worry about dealing good blows to the enemy™ - you. Thank you for this, Thurisaz. I hope you know what an insight it is to me to have it explained this way. It agrees with everything I've experienced. I just couldn't--or wouldn't--accept that otherwise decent human beings such as parents and teachers and community leaders are like this--so dense and thick-skulled and just plain stubborn. But nothing else that I have yet been able to come up with makes sense. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 You're welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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