Well, This Is Me

[Suzy]

@ badpuppy

 

I'm glad that works for you. I think the main thing is for everybody to find something that works. One of the things I like about being a non-Xtian is that I don't have any orders from anybody to try and convert people to what I believe or think! As a Xtian I hated that I was required to preach the gospel to people and shove my beliefs down their throats. I was never good at it either because I simply didn't believe in it. I believed in Jesus, the Bible, all the shit Xtianity taught but deep down I didn't believe in shoving down my beliefs on people's throats. So as an atheist/agnostic I appreciate that I'm free and I don't have to do this any more.

 

Despite of my personal disdain for Xtianity I admit that it works for some people too. For example my father is sick and he will not walk again, so his only hope to heal is his God or at least that if God won't heal him in this life, he will give him a new, healthy life in the afterlife. I don't believe in that, but he does. So why to try to ruin his faith in it? I'm not able to give him any other hope in exchange. So for him it works and I would say it's even useful. Gives him hope. I view it as a drug: harmful for the healthy, but can be useful for the sick. Xtianity is a delusion, but delusions sometimes can ease your pain.

[Chikirin]

I also took all the teachings about the spirit world very seriously and literally and to think that all those spiritual beings surround me all the time was a very uncomfortable feeling. I was also taught that God saw everything, even the thoughts in our heads, so I didn't even have my privacy inside my head!

 

This summer I was walking and I felt down emotionally, I was about to go down the typical thought pattern where I would interpret a negative feeling as being either God frowning on me, or the devil manipulating me, or my inherent evil bubbling up. I realized it was none of those things. It is nice to no longer have to chalk it up to such things, but rather to natural causes, like maybe I was feeling down because I didn't sleep well, or ate something bad, or a million other things.

[ConureDelSol]

Ironically, demons and God watching me all the time didn't freak me out nearly as much as Santa Claus. After all, he's a big, fat old guy that somehow manages to fit down your chimney and eat your food. At least Santa Claus gives presents though...God never gave me presents...

 

Welcome to the forum! I understand your reluctance to go as far as atheism. I felt the same way too for awhile. In fact, I only got over that hump recently thanks to the help of the folks on this forum. Don't take that as a "they all end up as atheists eventually" sort of comment. That's just what happened to me. I've found that this forum is extremely supportive and helpful so I hope you find it to be the same!

[badpuppy]

@Suzy early on I thought since I'd figured out Christianity was highly unlikely to be true that I would show my family and they would get it too and then we'd all be free. HAHAHA How utterly naive. It took me awhile, but I realized taking their beliefs from them or even attempting to was cruel and wrong. Though I am sad they think I'm going to hell. That's one negative consequence of their belief system they must accept unless they intend to either leave their belief system or change what they think about hell. I honestly don't think they believe in hell "deep down". But maybe they do. They think that "deep down" I believe in Jesus, and they are dead wrong about that. So likewise I could be wrong about what they 'deep down' believe. Though I hope I'm right because I find it a morally reprehensible belief. I hope they're just scared. I have a lot more compassion and empathy for that.

 

@Conure LOL @ Santa Claus. I actually DID go as far as atheism but maybe I wasn't super clear about it in my original post, I'm not sure. It might have come off more ambiguous than I'd intended. Atheism was one of many philosophies I "tried" to find tenable. I've come to believe that the correct path or philosophy for any given individual is the one they don't have to TRY to make work for them. It's just the one that fits and makes sense with no artifice.

 

Atheism was also nearly as psychologically harmful for me as Christianity. Even if materialistic atheism turned out to be empirical reality and could somehow be provable as such, if this were really the ONLY life I get, then I have the right to be happy and at peace in it, not living in terror and full-on depression because someone else felt their logic must be adhered to by anyone who wants to claim rationalism and intelligence. Not everybody thinks being the most "logical" (by one group's subjective standard) is somehow the highest virtue in life. And given the choice between happiness and getting random atheists on the internet to think I'm "super smart and logical", I'll take happiness any fucking day.

 

I'm willing to accept some atheists will consider me somehow less "freed from superstition" than they are, or less logical, or more emotional or less intelligent or whatever. But I don't let people manipulate me that way into denying who I am. Random atheists thinking I'm a moron (and I'm not saying you are like this at all, merely that I've observed a lot of that line of thought toward anyone who isn't also atheist) is about as likely to affect my decisions and beliefs as random Christians thinking I'm a moron. There will always be someone who thinks you're an idiot or wrong or that they are better than you for some reason. All you can do is shrug and stick with what is true and honest to you. If atheism is a true representation of your genuine outlook, then it's where you should be, but it's not an honest position for all of us. I hope more people will come to understand that, but if they don't, that's fine, too.

 

Of course, having said all that, the only place I'm really going to be trotting out the Buddhism in any blatant way (aside from my Ex-timony which is a story/post about me), is the Ex-Christian Spirituality section. So no one here need worry that every single thing I say is going to be some kind of Buddhist treatise on life. I understand there are wildly different worldviews here, and I respect that and don't want the atheists whose position is that they need a place free from "all religious bullshit" to have to deal with some kinder/gentler brand of spirituality shoved in their face. If anyone feels I start to do that on forums outside Ex-C Spirituality or this thread that's about ME (lol), then please PM me and I will cease and desist out of respect for those trying to use this site as a haven to get away from all spiritual worldviews.

[Sunny49]

Not everybody from my old church seems to have been damaged in the way that I was. I can only conclude that my brain is wired very differently from theirs. As such, I can't deal with belief systems where there are all these "invisible beings" hanging around.

 

You sound just like me on this. I also can't accept these beliefs about invisible beings. It really scares me and makes my life overly complicated. I also had panick attacks from their doctrine.

You said you were afraid of Satan and would cry and shake during the night. I didn't happen to me, but I heard a lot of stories of people being "possessed by devil". Could it be that those people actually had religious trauma syndrom? I read about this girl Emily Rose which was allegedaly possessed. Her upbringing was extremely religious. She had to sleep on the floor for making a little sin etc. I always ask myself, how come an atheist never gets possessed? What do you think? Could it be RTS?

[badpuppy]

@Sunny I think that's an excellent theory. Extreme fear and panic can cause a lot of the "demon possession" symptoms. And of course, in some extremist catholic groups if someone gets it into their head that you "have a demon", they can create symptoms simply with the abuse involved in an exorcism ritual itself. And I agree there is no need for all these extra invisible realities. It just makes things too complicated and stresses people out. There is no way to "prove" such things exist. And I know people have all sorts of experiences but if you have one, you aren't "obligated" to interpret it in any given way. It's a subjective experience. An event and an interpretation of an event are two different things. Someone can look at someone like that girl and say she's crazy. someone else will say she's possessed, someone else will claim it's some sort of trauma. But everybody is interpreting. It's all conjecture. (Though I think the religious trauma is a really good theory.)

[Sunny49]

@badpuppy: Yeah, I think if people are traumatized and know the symptoms of "demon possession" then they can subconsciously act it out. But, its just my opinion. Something similar happend to me when I had panick attacks (though not that extreme).

 

And I just can't digest their black and white world view, and this view on life as just a phase in which we have to suffer to come to heaven. And all this God testing us, Satan temtping us bullshit. What are humans just puppets for God and Satan? And that bullshit about Satan telepathicaly talking to us? WTF? And that we can't do nothing without God's or Jesus' help? It all makes me so depressed. When I was in HS, I thought to myself: "If this is the way life works, then I don't want to live anymore." It's just awful.

[badpuppy]

It's bizarre for sure. After I deconverted and had gone through the worst/most difficult parts of deconverting, I found myself incredibly grateful just to be free. To have my own mind, my privacy, my right to determine what *I* think about the world I find myself in... what *I* think is right/wrong, what *I* think the nature of reality is... etc. etc. The ways Christianity restricts people are insidious. It just goes on and on to the total micromanagement of a person's mind and behavior.

 

A family member thought he was "addicted to porn" and felt he needed a Christian therapist to help him get through it and felt super guilty about it. I don't deny that SOME people can have unhealthy addictions, but the average porn viewer doesn't have an unhealthy sexuality, even if they like porn a lot. Porn is normal. Masturbation is normal. Fantasy is normal. And yet... it's not normal in Christianity. It's something to repress and freak out about. My sister-in-law gets completely freaked out, almost to the point of superstition over anything that is even remotely sexual. It can be a sexy picture where NOTHING is showing and it's too "lustful" for her. I mean WTF? Really??

 

I'm just happy and grateful to be out of all that nonsense. I had dinner at my mother's house this evening and several people were over. One of the other guests was asked to pray. It's hard sometimes for me to keep a straight face and even pretend to be respectful of the fact that we are all sitting here while someone talks to their imaginary friend. And again... I was SO grateful to be out and to be free.

[Sunny49]

Yeah, one of the worst things that I felt is that they were trying to take away the most intimate parts of me: My thoughts, my feelings, my opinions, my own sense of world....who am I if they take this all away? Just a clon? And all this conflict: I think something is ok, but "God" doesn't - I have to listen to "God" instead of myself - that leads my to a constant conflict.

 

One of the other guests was asked to pray. It's hard sometimes for me to keep a straight face and even pretend to be respectful of the fact that we are all sitting here while someone talks to their imaginary friend.

 

Me too. My family usually never prays but when some religious guests come and wants us to pray - it's hard for me to be respectful after all that harm.

 

I think one of the reason why it's so hard to deconvert is that christianity is considered good and normal and is socially accepted.

[badpuppy]

You know, this is very bad of me, but I just continue eating. I don't eat LOUDLY or distract them, but I"m not going to put my fork down to pretend I think this isn't insane behavior.

 

IMO Christianity is FAR from normal. Also, society is filled with morons. I genuinely TRY not to be like this but right now I think I'm in one of my "moods" lol. It's hard for me not to feel contempt toward the stupid. I try to think of them as children and etc. And sometimes that works, but the fact that the CHILDREN are running things irritates me a little bit sometimes. Oh well, I'll get over it. It's the holidays and the fact that I have all these religious people constantly in my face talking to their imaginary friend and asking me to go along with it.

[Sunny49]

You know, this is very bad of me, but I just continue eating. I don't eat LOUDLY or distract them, but I"m not going to put my fork down to pretend I think this isn't insane behavior.

 

 

Haha, you do that? You are brave! I would be ashamed to do that. Usually, I just pretend I'm praying.

[badpuppy]

Well, they know I think their beliefs are insane. Why would I coddle behavior I genuinely believe to be insane? (Not attacking you in any way, just throwing out a rhetorical question.) Plus I wasn't eating loudly. I doubt anyone knew I was eating. They all had their eyes closed and their brains focused on melding with Jesus. How would they know? If they are paying attention to and trying to analyze barely-there sounds at the table, or are peeking, then they can't claim the moral high road since this actually IS their belief system. Me opting out of participating in someone else's rituals is normal especially if I'm not actively distracting or disturbing them.

 

I could just stand up and leave the table and the room while they pray but that would cause all sorts of drama and hurt feelings. (Also, it would give the false impression that I'm somehow 'afraid they are right' and 'running from God'.) So if I am going to be guilted/manipulated into sitting there while they do their little prayer, I will absolutely continue eating. Anything else is akin to forcing me to participate in their inane ritual. (And I don't think all rituals are inane, but most rituals combined with literalistic skydaddy beliefs, yes, I think those are inane and insane... which is why... though I don't like when someone prejudges me when they don't know me... if an atheist wants to think Buddhism is insane or I'm insane, they can have at that belief. I'm not going to ask them to support or coddle something they don't agree with. But... then I'm also not going to be shoving it in their face constantly, either.)

 

While I generally don't think it's nice to be rude during other people's spiritual activities, I find it HIGHLY rude to push those activities on me. It would be appalling if I went to a church and was disrespectful during their service. But it would have been MY choice to attend the service. When I'm having dinner with people, yes, it was my choice to attend, but if I don't attend I have to deal with another round of drama. And, despite their delusions, I actually like my family and want to spend time with them. I never sit in front of them and meditate. Even though there is nothing wrong with meditation, it would make them uncomfortable because it's "part of those weird eastern beliefs." Meanwhile, they don't get how their insistence on having a formal prayer at dinner is the same thing for me. It's rude to me even if it's their house because they know about my non-belief. And enough years have passed that they can't call it some rebellious phase.

 

When I have people over to my house I don't do every Buddhist thing I can think of and then say: "Well, it's my house, my rules." I try to be considerate of the sensitivities of people coming into my home. But literalist Christians are rarely so considerate. To me, continuing to go about my business, i.e. eating, is the least offensive option I can come up with that I'm actually willing to do. i.e. I'm not willing to stop eating to sit there and pretend to go along with that insanity. Christianity harmed to much to give even the veneer of respect to it or any of its practices.

[LearnedHag]

You made me laugh with the build-a-bear philosophy.

 

Re: the death experience; I've heard it said that 'remember how you felt in 1850? That's how you'll feel after death. For me it works.

[badpuppy]

You made me laugh with the build-a-bear philosophy.

 

Re: the death experience; I've heard it said that 'remember how you felt in 1850? That's how you'll feel after death. For me it works.

 

hehe thanks! You know, I don't remember what I was doing in 1850, but that doesn't mean my consciousness didn't exist. I mean... I don't remember ANYTHING before age 4. But I'm pretty sure I existed before that. Memory is a funny thing. But... by the same token, not remembering something may also mean there is nothing to remember.