asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 When I was a christian one of my strongest arguments for the faith was the diversity of life. Just look around in our world and see all the different complexities of life. The human race itself is very intelligent and we are very complex in the way our bodies are built and how they function. I don't understand how something like this could have just happened without a creator. That was one reason I was christian. Now on top of this, it doesn't make sense to me how a creator could have supernaturally created the universe but then ceases to exist. If this creator is supernatural, I have never felt any kind of supernatural experience to back it up. So where is this creator? This is now one of the reasons I left the faith. Because I can't know for certain that Jesus was a man that really walked this earth. Therefore I cannot conclude that he was God so I cannot call myself a christian. So that leaves me to be either agnostic or atheist. I have a hard time saying I'm atheist because of the diversity of life and my thoughts on how it makes sense a creator was involved. But if I'm agnostic it doesn't make sense why God would create everything and then no be a part of his creation. So I’m left in the middle not sure. Any ideas or comments on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 It sounds like you may be a Deist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 It sounds like you may be a Deist. 104093[/snapback] Zack, That is my struggle. It doesn't make sense to my why a god would create the world and then abondon it. Yet it doesn't make sense how our world could have just happened via evolution. And any religion obviously doesn't make sense to me which is why i'm not a christian anymore. So I'm unsure what I am. I really want to be an atheist or an agnostic or something. Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- I don't really understand "wanting" to be an atheist. When I was questioning Christianity, I went through a period where I examined all my beliefs and rejected those that didn't make sense. Eventually, I had rejected all of Christianity to the point of rejecting Theism. At that point, it didn't matter what I "wanted," I was an atheist. Decide for yourself which beliefs you accept and reject, and align yourself accordingly. You don't have to be one or the other. As I said above, from what you currently believe, you're a Deist. I don't believe in Deism, but if you do, that's perfectly fine. There have been many Deists on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- I don't really understand "wanting" to be an atheist. When I was questioning Christianity, I went through a period where I examined all my beliefs and rejected those that didn't make sense. Eventually, I had rejected all of Christianity to the point of rejecting Theism. At that point, it didn't matter what I "wanted," I was an atheist. Decide for yourself which beliefs you accept and reject, and align yourself accordingly. You don't have to be one or the other. As I said above, from what you currently believe, you're a Deist. I don't believe in Deism, but if you do, that's perfectly fine. There have been many Deists on this forum. 104099[/snapback] Well I'm not sure I'm a deist because it doesn't make sense to me how a god could create the world and the abondon it. So I don't necessarily believe that is how it happened. Yet I am open to that as a possibilty. I call myself agnostic because I'm not sure. I believe the possibility that a god created everything, but i'm not sure. I'm also open to the possibilty of evolution, but since I have no proof of that either I'm not sure. I guess I was just curious if anyone could give me some support as what they believe as I'm just curious what others think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Neil Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Well, to answer the question of the post, I consider myself an atheist. I do not consider myself an agonostic, because the god concept relies on being defined by negatives. I cannot hold a position, such as agnosticism, which says that a god may or may not exist when the god concept itself is incoherent. I have no presumption about the origin of the universe. I don't know if there even was an origin of the universe. The problem I have with prescribing a God to the origin of the universe is that it only pushes the problem back a step. Instead of an unexplained universe, we have an unexplained god. I prefer not to complicate the mysteries of the universe by adding unnecessary deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- Then you're functionally agnostic. There's no shame in that. If you're interested in learning more about atheism, click here. If you're interested in learning more about evolutionary theory, click here. Happy reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I agree with Zach here. The reason why you can't decide, and going back and forth, shows that you are an agnostic. I've been going through the phases (and pretty quick too), from deist, to naturalist, to agnostic and now atheist. It might happen to you too, or you might feel content to stay at some point. What's important is that you never stop asking, wondering, thinking and exploring. We will never have a full answer to everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 I agree with Zach here. The reason why you can't decide, and going back and forth, shows that you are an agnostic. I've been going through the phases (and pretty quick too), from deist, to naturalist, to agnostic and now atheist. It might happen to you too, or you might feel content to stay at some point. What's important is that you never stop asking, wondering, thinking and exploring. We will never have a full answer to everything. 104128[/snapback] This really helps allot! I'm about to check out the links you recommended as well. Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I consider myself agnostic because I don't think the existence or unexistence of a deity can ever be proven, scientifically or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 I consider myself agnostic because I don't think the existence or unexistence of a deity can ever be proven, scientifically or otherwise. 104142[/snapback] Sometimes I wish I just didn't care about any of this. Often I find myself thinking about stuff like this and it can literally drive me batty. I have such a hard time not knowing the answsers to this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Sometimes I wish I just didn't care about any of this. Often I find myself thinking about stuff like this and it can literally drive me batty. I have such a hard time not knowing the answsers to this topic. 104148[/snapback] You know, the thought about a creator or not, is very similar to the thought of infinity. When I was a kid, it was really hard to accept the infinity of time and space. Because if there was an end, what was beyond that end? And so on... And not until my mind could just accept the fact of infinities (of any kind), it got to a rest. Acceptance of not knowing. And when I de-converted I went through the same phase again, but now about if there is a God or not. You get to a point where you have to accept the not-knowing. And I'm not a "hard-core" atheist, but what they call a weak atheist, sometimes I refer to myself as an agnostic/atheist. Which means that I generally speaking don't think you can prove, neither disprove, a creator, but most things points to that there is no god, so my specific standpoint is that there is no god. One day I could be proven right, or maybe I get proven wrong, but then I can easily change my view and accept whatever would be evident. One of the lessons I learned in life is, that it is very easy to be certain about things, and one day you find out that you were wrong. My walk as a Christian is an example of it. 30 years of begin wrong, but being convinced in my mind that is was right. I'm not going to make the same mistake twice and be 100% sure on anything. But I do take standpoint, but they're not stronger than the evidence I can see and find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 It sounds like you may be a Deist. 104093[/snapback] Zach -- You say you are from cincy in another post. Dude I think I may know you. Is your girlfriend Amber? Perkins days?? This is Derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- Nope. You've got the wrong Zach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- Nope. You've got the wrong Zach. 104191[/snapback] Its ironic because even your picture looks like the Zach that I know. When I read one of your first posts I had to look at your profile to see where you were from. When I read Texas I dismissed it. Then when you said you were originally from cincy I thought maybe it was the Zach that knew and he moved away. Anyway, strange indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- I am originally from Cincinnati, but I just moved to Dallas. I have never had a girlfriend named Amber Perkins, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All Gods Fail Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Cincy- I don't really understand "wanting" to be an atheist. When I was questioning Christianity, I went through a period where I examined all my beliefs and rejected those that didn't make sense. Eventually, I had rejected all of Christianity to the point of rejecting Theism. At that point, it didn't matter what I "wanted," I was an atheist. 104099[/snapback] Ditto me - I was an agnostic for quite awhile after my deconversion, but eventually I realized I just didn't buy into the notion of gods in general. I mean, I understand you can't say 'There's no such thing as gods/spirits/demons' and then produce irrefutable proof of that. But if there are any supernatural beings out there, they do a pretty good job of staying hidden. Too good of a job, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I don't believe in the Christian God, or, for that matter, any other gods at all. I suppose their existence is possible, though I consider it extremely unlikely. I consider myself to be an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skankboy Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I suppose their existence is possible, though I consider it extremely unlikely. I consider myself to be an atheist. I think that pretty much describes me as well. I don't believe they exist, both because of the hazy definitions "god" and their seemingly superfluous nature, but I do reserve the right to change my mind if new evidence was brought to my attention. My biggest complaint about the idea of god though, is the blatant human-centric view it tends to engender. As my life is dedicated to the elimination of such egocentrism, I tend to shy from such deism. IMOHO, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Challenger Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 (Skankboy) I think that pretty much describes me as well. I don't believe they exist, both because of the hazy definitions "god" and their seemingly superfluous nature, but I do reserve the right to change my mind if new evidence was brought to my attention. I hear on a constant basis that there is already plenty of "evidence". I'm told to look to the Bible for it. I do that, and ask about Joshua 10:12-13, Isaiah 38:7 and a few other verses. If these things truly happened, why isn't there any verfication of them outside of the Bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero of Hyrule Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I'm agnostic. I actually changed from weak atheist to agnostic after a lot of thing about the subject when discussing on TFN. I think that Gods are possible and that even the Christian view of God is possible, but that the bible can't ever be fully true. Even with God inspiring it, it was still humans who wrote it down. (It was inspired and not dicted because than there might have been dictating errors, a christian once told me) But I don't think there's much chance in Christianty being true. If there's a western idea of God than He's most likely playing "Sims: infinity version" or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Cincy- Then you're functionally agnostic. There's no shame in that. If you're interested in learning more about atheism, click here. If you're interested in learning more about evolutionary theory, click here. Happy reading! 104121[/snapback] and here for a great pov got plenty of links in the MyStory thread link in my sig... esp check out Paul Tobin's Central Thesis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I cannot hold a position, such as agnosticism, which says that a god may or may not exist when the god concept itself is incoherent. I have no presumption about the origin of the universe. I don't know if there even was an origin of the universe. The problem I have with prescribing a God to the origin of the universe is that it only pushes the problem back a step. Instead of an unexplained universe, we have an unexplained god. I prefer not to complicate the mysteries of the universe by adding unnecessary deities. 104116[/snapback] A concise, coherent application of Occam's Razor. We can always count on Mr. Neil to distill his thought into a few well-chosen words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dianka Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 At the beginning of this year I started re-thinking my stand on religion. I had little problem giving up my religion, but I was running myself in circles thinking about whether there was a creator. Eventually something outside of logic causes us to believe in something because belief isn't logical. I became an atheist after going to my school's lab for an assignment. We had to compare/contrast the brain of a sheep, horse, and human. Yeah, three pickled brains did it for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Sometimes I wish I just didn't care about any of this. Often I find myself thinking about stuff like this and it can literally drive me batty. I have such a hard time not knowing the answsers to this topic. But if we knew everything, then we would be constantly bored, just like Q from Star Trek: Next Gen. So I'm glad I don't know everything, cause I hate being bored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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