mymistake Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 As most of you know by now, usually when I start a new thread it's so I can go off and vent, and this is another one of those threads! My mood has been pretty good the past few weeks, but for some reason today I woke up PISSED. I've been thinking about that masochistic piece of shit bible and how it says we have to forgive EVERYONE who has ever hurt us. For years I've said I forgive the people who have hurt me, even though in the back of my mind I knew there were some people that I did not truly forgive. And I woke up today and thought, "I don't have to fucking forgive anyone if I don't want to!" Fuck that shit! I can forgive people who have apologized for hurting me, but why the fuck should I have to forgive people who have not only never apologized to me, but hurt me so bad that I'm STILL suffering the effects of what they did to me to this day? There are some (many) cruel, evil people in this world and nobody should be forced to forgive someone if they don't want to, especially if it's someone who has hurt them in a way that will affect them for the rest of their life. They say forgiveness isn't for the other person, but for you blah blah blah, but that's debatable. I agree that you shouldn't let the anger you have for someone take over your life because it doesn't do any good for you, but if there is some anger inside of you for people who have hurt you, there's not much you can do to help those feelings and you have every right to have them. It just makes me SO ANGRY that there's so much masochistic shit in the bible that makes people feel worthless and that I actually fell for that shit. Maybe if "God" actually punished all these evil people after they do evil shit it would be easier to forgive, but "God" just keeps letting evil people cause even more hurt to others (because there probably is not a god). What a bunch of brainwashing lies and bullshit! Thank you once again for listening to me vent!!! Your outrage is valid. Of course that is a reasonable response. However I find that the Bible and Christians are confused about the meaning of "forgive". They don't even understand what it means nor do they tell us how to do it. Christianity gives us beliefs that actually make it harder to forgive. You are right in that you don't have to do anything. There is no God who needs blood before he will forgive so he demands that you forgive without blood. He doesn't exist. So what is in it for you? Why should any of us forgive anybody? The reason to forgive others is that doing so benefits the forgiver. Well that seems counter intuitive, especially after a steady diet of Christian nonsense. And here is the reason - forgiveness has nothing at all to do with trust! When you forgive someone you never ever have to trust them again. Many people are not worthy of trust. If you would benefit from forgiving someone then chances are they have proven that you should not trust them. Christianity confuses people because Christianity implies that forgiveness requires trust when it doesn't. If someone hurts you then go ahead and never trust them again unless they prove themselves worthy of your trust. Trust is earned. Well then, what is forgiveness? Real forgiveness is deciding "That incident hurt and what happened was wrong but I am not going to let it bother me anymore". See? The only person who benefits from forgiveness is the forgiver. The perpetrator of the crime or wrong does not benefit from forgiveness in any way. There is no trust extended. There is no pretending that the wrong was not a wrong. Forgiveness acknowledges what happened and that it was wrong. Forgiveness is a choice to move forward and not let the incident continue to harm one's self. So when an evil person harms you forgiving them just ends the power of the incident to mess with you down the road. You never have to trust them. You never have to pretend it didn't happen. You never have to pretend it wasn't wrong. Just choose to move forward and not be harmed by it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 @MM i agree with what you're saying, but like you said also... Christianity has polluted the word "forgiveness" to make it mean something it doesn't mean. In Christian-world forgiveness means that you're going to just "let it slide" and interact with the person who harmed you again and give them more and more chances. If we don't mean that when we say "forgiveness" but instead mean: "letting go", maybe we should just say "letting go". It's sort of like "God", no one in the west can discuss any spiritual concepts and hear that word without thinking of some angry supernatural deity who somehow is also loving who insists you meet a list of demands he won't be clear about. Productive discussions are hard to have on topics when we've been brow-beaten and abused with a negative/unhealthy concept applied to a word. In that case, it seems more productive to allow the abusive people to keep the word they corrupted and find a new way to express our thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 @MM i agree with what you're saying, but like you said also... Christianity has polluted the word "forgiveness" to make it mean something it doesn't mean. In Christian-world forgiveness means that you're going to just "let it slide" and interact with the person who harmed you again and give them more and more chances. If we don't mean that when we say "forgiveness" but instead mean: "letting go", maybe we should just say "letting go". Whatever word works for you is fine with me. Just watch out for the word "unforgiveness". Right now I have a relative who I regard as a psychopath and a compulsive liar. All the Christians who observe me regarding him assume that I have unforgiveness and want to help me forgive. "Why can't you forgive him? Why?" Fact is I have a hard time remembering whatever it was he did to me. If I sat down and spent a few minutes I could outline the basics but the details are fuzzy to me. I can only remember a few of them. It's just not that important to me. I have no reason to remember. However to this day I welcome him around my family as much as I would welcome a rabid dog. I don't care what he did in the past. I will not allow him to do harm in the present. He is a criminal waiting for an opportunity and he is going to have to do his self destruction somewhere else. I completely forgive him but will never trust him. It's sort of like "God", no one in the west can discuss any spiritual concepts and hear that word without thinking of some angry supernatural deity who somehow is also loving who insists you meet a list of demands he won't be clear about. Productive discussions are hard to have on topics when we've been brow-beaten and abused with a negative/unhealthy concept applied to a word. In that case, it seems more productive to allow the abusive people to keep the word they corrupted and find a new way to express our thought. Sounds like you are trying to talk to Christians. That can be very frustrating. I usually have to write them off as brainwashed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Re: unforgiveness that's a good point and helps me understand why you still choose to use the term "forgiveness" despite it's problems And actually my second part was with regards to discussions with materialists... not Christians. Christians have blinders too and assumptions about what the word "God" means, but dogmatic "strong" atheists (not just the kind who lack belief but who think they can somehow ASSERT reality) seem to have even more ingrained views of "God". You can't reason with them or get them to have a discussion about your "actual beliefs". Any use of the word "God" creates an image of a supernatural god "out there". Any explanation of what you "really believe" results in an accusation of "god of the gaps"... i.e. the SAME god concept but given a smaller domain... which is not what I believe at ALL. I've found use of the word "God" completely unproductive and actually use of the word "universal consciousness" or anything else completely unproductive because some people just don't want to even HEAR that anybody exists that they can't prove to be an utter superstitious moron. In the same way I TRY to avoid getting into it too much with Christians, I'm likewise trying to learn to do the same with dogmatic materialists. I dont care what philosophy anyone holds, it's when they get dogmatic and think they are "right" and "cannot be wrong" and caricature my views either as "deception from the devil" or "irrational god of the gaps" or "wishful thinking" that I get annoyed. Because all it is is an attempt to caricature me so they don't have to deal with me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Also... regarding "brainwashing". Hardline materialism doesn't allow for free will. Everything would be deterministic and free will would be an illusion. So therefore, according to the materialist view we are ALL conditioned, and therefore ALL brainwashed in one way or another. So it amuses me when dogmatic materialists call themselves "free thinkers". By their own viewpoint they aren't. Determinism doesn't allow for such an animal as a "free thought". It's all chemicals. If thoughts aren't things and are not just "chemicals" then where do they come from? If we can't reduce it down to materialism then why are materialists so sure of themselves? If we can reduce it down, why bother to argue anything? We're all really "The Sims" anyway in that worldview. In materialism NOTHING matters and any attempt to place an actual meaning on anything is illusion... just like free will and identity. It shouldn't be hard for people to understand why I reject such an absurd worldview that contradicts my entire experience of life. It's nihilism pure and simple, and somebody better give me a hell of a better explanation than "God is irrational"... yeah... the way they describe the concept. But not everything is so black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 So therefore, according to the materialist view we are ALL conditioned, and therefore ALL brainwashed in one way or another. So what makes you think that thought is not conditioned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 So therefore, according to the materialist view we are ALL conditioned, and therefore ALL brainwashed in one way or another. So what makes you think that thought is not conditioned? I really don't want to debate determinism vs. free will with you. I respect your right to hold that viewpoint but I can't have that debate without getting highly irritated. And I'm already somewhat irriated (due to my own choices to not just ignore things that annoy me today.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 This whole "You have to forgive!" thing is tied up with the erroneous precept that you must "Return good for evil." Bullshit! You return justice for evil; if you return good for evil, what then is the point of Romans Chapter 13 and what is contained therein? To "Return good for evil," is merely to aid and abet those who commit evil. Christians, in one of their typical sob stories, point to Corrie Ten Boom and how she forgave a former SS concentration camp guard, even though her own sister had died in the same camp. Well bully for her! God didn't tell her to do it, she chose to do it, based on the aforesaid misconception. I prefer the story of an Israeli man who chose a different course. Both his parents had been murdered in Romania in front of his eyes, but he survived the war. He tracked down the man who had done the murders and cut loose with a machine pistol. As Joseph Stalin said, "Death solves all problems. No man, no problem!" What is more, other victims did the same in various places. Christians ignore stories like that; they prefer to let their Lord do the job. Forgiveness is all well and good; justice, rough though it might be at times, is better! Casey Personally I don't have a problem with forgiving a murder and then throwing the switch to execute them. Forgiveness does not entail trusting them or preventing justice. Ten Boom was confused by Christianity. Christianity spreads multiple misconceptions about forgiveness. God cannot forgive without the spilling of blood so you go out and forgive without the spilling of blood. Because you are better than God? Hogwash! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 So therefore, according to the materialist view we are ALL conditioned, and therefore ALL brainwashed in one way or another. So what makes you think that thought is not conditioned? I really don't want to debate determinism vs. free will with you. I respect your right to hold that viewpoint but I can't have that debate without getting highly irritated. And I'm already somewhat irriated (due to my own choices to not just ignore things that annoy me today.) That's fine. Maybe some other time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I hold on to anger for as long as it takes to develop an aversion to the sort of situation that got me hurt in the first place. I'm a little too good sometimes at being "nice" and not realizing until later just how unhealthy the situation/relationship is. Anger reminds me that I have the right to take care of myself and protect myself. Anger at littler things helps me stop a bad situation early, when the warning signals first show up. But I don't like the feeling of anger, so once it's done it's job I like to stop thinking about it and move on. Though it's ok if it flares up again when a similar situation happens, if it's there to warn me to choose differently this time. I define forgiveness as being willing to give a damaged relationship another go - I've been learning that this is only a good thing to do when the other other person involved admits to the damage, doesn't want to cause more, and will respect whatever boundaries I set to protect myself in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 That's fine. Maybe some other time. Maybe. I'm trying to get to the point of not debating at all and just shrugging and letting other people believe what they believe without my interference. My big weakness still is arguing with materialists... though ironically I'm not even arguing that "my view is correct and materialism is wrong". I'm merely arguing for my right to HOLD MY VIEWPOINT without automatically being deemed a superstitious idiot. (Eventually I'll come to understand that expecting that is like expecting a fundamentalist christian not to think I'm "led by the devil") It grates on my nerves how some people think they are "superior" to others based on what they think about reality. It's unknowable. We all just have opinions about it. We may think our opinions are informed, but that's still not saying much. Like... I accept you could be right about determinism... they could be right about materialism... I don't claim to have all the answers. But I accept what makes sense to me and not what doesn't and try to be authentic about that. It can feel stifling interacting in a space where you know that a good portion of participants don't really respect that you're a thinking human being who came to your own viewpoint... you must in some way be less educated or superstitious or have some weak psychological constitution that makes you that way. But they're exempt and above all of that. Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 @VF I was going to +1 you but I'm out of +1's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Maybe. I'm trying to get to the point of not debating at all and just shrugging and letting other people believe what they believe without my interference. My big weakness still is arguing with materialists... though ironically I'm not even arguing that "my view is correct and materialism is wrong". I'm merely arguing for my right to HOLD MY VIEWPOINT without automatically being deemed a superstitious idiot. (Eventually I'll come to understand that expecting that is like expecting a fundamentalist christian not to think I'm "led by the devil") It grates on my nerves how some people think they are "superior" to others based on what they think about reality. It's unknowable. We all just have opinions about it. We may think our opinions are informed, but that's still not saying much. Like... I accept you could be right about determinism... they could be right about materialism... I don't claim to have all the answers. But I accept what makes sense to me and not what doesn't and try to be authentic about that. It can feel stifling interacting in a space where you know that a good portion of participants don't really respect that you're a thinking human being who came to your own viewpoint... you must in some way be less educated or superstitious or have some weak psychological constitution that makes you that way. But they're exempt and above all of that. Ugh. The only thing is, Badpuppy, if you keep putting out your view that determinism equals materialism and that determinism is false because the human thought is unconditioned, one day you are going to have to back that position up with some good reasons why you think that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Maybe. I'm trying to get to the point of not debating at all and just shrugging and letting other people believe what they believe without my interference. My big weakness still is arguing with materialists... though ironically I'm not even arguing that "my view is correct and materialism is wrong". I'm merely arguing for my right to HOLD MY VIEWPOINT without automatically being deemed a superstitious idiot. (Eventually I'll come to understand that expecting that is like expecting a fundamentalist christian not to think I'm "led by the devil") It grates on my nerves how some people think they are "superior" to others based on what they think about reality. It's unknowable. We all just have opinions about it. We may think our opinions are informed, but that's still not saying much. Like... I accept you could be right about determinism... they could be right about materialism... I don't claim to have all the answers. But I accept what makes sense to me and not what doesn't and try to be authentic about that. It can feel stifling interacting in a space where you know that a good portion of participants don't really respect that you're a thinking human being who came to your own viewpoint... you must in some way be less educated or superstitious or have some weak psychological constitution that makes you that way. But they're exempt and above all of that. Ugh. The only thing is, Badpuppy, if you keep putting out your view that determinism equals materialism and that determinism is false because the human thought is unconditioned, one day you are going to have to back that position up with some good reasons why you think that way. I'm not sure why I have to do anything. I shared my opinion. I may or may not want to get into WHY I hold an opinion. Especially if I know where the discussion will go and how much it will frustrate me. I may not be able to share ANY opinions because I really don't want to constantly argue. But I can't share an opinion without defending it when I feel attacked for having it. So it's probably better for me to learn just not to share opinions. Because it seriously emotionally drains me to get into arguments/debates with people. And not just on spiritual topics... lest someone think I'm just too emotionally invested or "protecting myself" or whatever... ANY topic. Topics I care passionately about and topics I don't care that much about at all. I often feel compelled to SHARE but I don't want to debate/argue/feel compelled to "explain myself" like it's an inquisition, etc. And I don't feel I really should have to. i.e. I'm not asking anybody to "agree that I'm right" about anything. I honestly and truly do not care what anybody else believes. My only real hang-up (that I'm working through) is assumptions people make about those who don't hold their same viewpoint. I'm trying to work through and trying to understand the psychology of why people think like they do and why they hold the viewpoints they hold in order to understand why they so passionately INSIST on mischaracterizing other people's viewpoints or making assumptions about people who hold viewpoints other than their own. i.e. why do people have to feel someone who thinks differently than them must have bad intentions or be stupid or irrational or less educated or delusional or led astray by some evil being or government mind controlled? Why can't people just accept different people perceive things differently and we can't empirically objectively know everything? And I'm not saying you do that... but the entire process is just draining to me. I understand that I have to STOP engaging if I don't want to engage, though. I'm trying to sort out how to engage to the level I want to engage without feeling like I'm on trial every time I type out a thought. i.e. it seems like a lot of people are here to "debate" with each other. I want to hang out and share thoughts and ideas. I get frustrated by certain ways certain people behave here by stating things as facts and those who disagree as stupid or delusional. I don't understand why that's "necessary". I understand a lot of people have anger toward Christianity but we are all Ex-C's here. (Except our few nice Christians). Also I'm dealing with the issue of working on a book so a lot of ideas are coming to me about certain things and I'm floating them out there and engaging to try to work through this manuscript. Once I get finished with the book I should hopefully be able to just hang out and post less controversial thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Badpuppy, I am just trying to understand you. I accept that you percieve things differently but I can't discern why. I am not saying shut up. It really has nothing to do with Christianity - at least from my end of it - I am long out of it. I don't equate determinism with materialism although I understand some do. I say human thought is not "free," at least not entirely. It is conditioned. On the absolute level there is neither determinism nor "free will". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Badpuppy, I am just trying to understand you. I accept that you percieve things differently but I can't discern why. I am not saying shut up. It really has nothing to do with Christianity - at least from my end of it - I am long out of it. I don't equate determinism with materialism although I understand some do. I say human thought is not "free," at least not entirely. It is conditioned. On the absolute level there is neither determinism nor "free will". I should clarify: I don't think that all determinists are materialists. But logically all materialists must be determinists. There are technically (IMO) ways to be a determinist that still allows for free will, but not within a reductionistic materialism. Within materialism... determinism is pretty definite as a philosophical given. And so, I find it surprising when a materialistic atheist claims they are a "free thinker", by their own philosophy... no they are not. But I'm not saying you have to be a materialist to be a determnist. Nor am I saying there can be no nuance in a deterministic viewpoint...only that that nuance can't exist within reductionistic materialism... for obvious reasons. Hope that clarifies it. I know you aren't telling me to shut up. I just get really emotionally drained from what I perceive as conflict... and yet I engage/initiate it. But then I get too drained to keep going in it. I'm trying to get to a place where I don't feel compelled to be "controversial" in the first place. Because what I really want to do is share thoughts and ideas in a non-combative fashion but my smart mouth and sarcasm always get in the way... which escalates things. I'm not saying they escalated here with you. They haven't. I am just saying that after escalating elsewhere, even the idea of getting into a big thing on determinism vs. free will... just sounded like getting a root canal as far as fun level goes. I think also that there are certain people that you try to communicate with and you just can't. You keep misinterpreting what they say, they keep misinterpreting what you say and you just cant' ever get past that... that's part of why debate is draining to me because part of where that line is between sharing/debate for me is when it gets into that argumentative place that is mostly a result of two people who for whatever reason... can't connect. You haven't given any reason for me to think you and I "can't connect". But meh, it's one of those days. I am actually a bit curious about your specific viewpoints but right now I don't have the mental space to dig into them, so I actually may take you up on that at some point when I feel like I can approach the discussion without the baggage of failed communication attempts with others. i.e. I'd like to learn what you think when I'm not in a combative mental space that doesn't allow me to just hear what you think without "reacting". You know? Because you've proven to be a thoughtful and intelligent person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotalWreck Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm lost...the second half of this thread seems to have totally changed direction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Sorry, that's my fault. I made an offhand remark as part of a comment (I can never keep it succinct, it appears). Then MyMistake replied to the remark thinking I was referring to one thing when I was referring to another... so I explained which got us on a side thread and derailed things. Feel free to pick up the original thread. If necessary I can move to private message with Deva if I need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I should clarify: I don't think that all determinists are materialists. Thank you. I was not clear on that point. I see now that your view of this issue is more nuanced than some of your prior posts would indicate. I know you aren't telling me to shut up. I just get really emotionally drained from what I perceive as conflict... and yet I engage/initiate it. But then I get too drained to keep going in it. I'm trying to get to a place where I don't feel compelled to be "controversial" in the first place. Because what I really want to do is share thoughts and ideas in a non-combative fashion but my smart mouth and sarcasm always get in the way... which escalates things. I have no intention of escalating things from my end. You have said some interesting things. I just want to get clearer on your position. I think also that there are certain people that you try to communicate with and you just can't. That's right. I can't discuss things like this with some people here. i.e. I'd like to learn what you think when I'm not in a combative mental space that doesn't allow me to just hear what you think without "reacting". You know? Because you've proven to be a thoughtful and intelligent person. Thank you. Maybe some other time then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @Deva in a couple of days when I'm in the right mental zone (have some RL stuff to do too), we could discuss it in PM or we could start a new thread somewhere if you like, just let me know. I'm 20 kinds of curious now. Whether I agree with you or not, I just 'gotta know' hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @Deva in a couple of days when I'm in the right mental zone (have some RL stuff to do too), we could discuss it in PM or we could start a new thread somewhere if you like, just let me know. I'm 20 kinds of curious now. Whether I agree with you or not, I just 'gotta know' hahaha. PM me next weekend. The rest of this week is going to be rough for me. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 @Deva in a couple of days when I'm in the right mental zone (have some RL stuff to do too), we could discuss it in PM or we could start a new thread somewhere if you like, just let me know. I'm 20 kinds of curious now. Whether I agree with you or not, I just 'gotta know' hahaha. PM me next weekend. The rest of this week is going to be rough for me. Thanks. Okay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryper Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Forgiveness is for your benefit, not theirs, but you aren't required to do it if you don't want to. ^this^ It's not about letting them off the hook. It is about your ability to release that anger that you hold. You are angry about what happened to you because of religion. Okay. That is part of the process. Eventually, being able to look at a bible and just see it as a book of myths that has no power you will come. Anger in all cases occurs because of unfullfilled expectation. You expected evil people to be punished by god because that is what the book says would happen. And time and time again it didn't. You have every right to be angry. You also have a choice to let it go. Personally, I have found myself much more calm and self assured since I have let go of the relationship with my father, who was the cause of most of my issues with religion. It wasn't heated. It was just like a turning of a page. As the new chapter begins, it is one that realizes that my healing from my traumas is my responsibility. There will be helpers along the way. No one truly heals in isolation. However, it was my choice to heal me and release the anger. Just as it is your choice to do the same. Christianity calls it forgiveness. In reality, it's part of the healing process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Anger in all cases occurs because of unfullfilled expectation. Yes. This. And I think it's something that continues to confront us. Not just with regards to exiting Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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