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Goodbye Jesus

Virgin Birth?


Casey

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The following comes from this site:

 

http://www.askwhy.co.uk/christianity/0615ContraCelsum.html

 

I'll just quote its main points, although it is well worth reading in its entirety.

 

Jesus and the Jews

 

Celsus knew that Christianity had begun in Judaism whose great prophet was Moses, another magician, but he noted that the Jews had themselves rejected the claims of the new prophet who was a Son of God. Celsus thought the Jewish scriptures were late compositions, and he labelled Christianity “blockheaded wisdom” to accept the Jewish scriptures yet reinterpret them allegorically. To give the Jewish viewpoint, Celsus introduces a hypothetical Jew, who says to the Son of God:

 

    You were born in a small Jewish village. Your mother was a poor woman who earned her bread by spinning. Her husband divorced her for adultery. You were born in secret and were afterwards carried to Egypt, and were brought up among the Egyptian conjurers. The arts which you there learnt, you practised when you returned to your own people, and you then persuaded them you were God. It was given out that you were born of a virgin. Your real father was a soldier named Panther. The story of your divine parentage is like the story of Danaë.

 

    You say that, when you were baptized in Jordan, a dove descended upon you, and a voice was heard from heaven declaring that you were the Son of God. Who saw the dove? Who heard the voice, except you and another who suffered as you suffered? The prophets have foretold that a Son of God is to come. Granted. But how are we to know that they referred to you? They spoke of a glorious king who was to reign over the world. You, we know only as wandering about with publicans and boatmen of abandoned character.

 

    You tell us that the wise men of the east came at your birth to adore you, that they gave notice to Herod and that Herod killed all the children in Bethlehem to prevent you from becoming king. You yourself escaped by going to Egypt. Is this story true? And, if it be, could not the angels who had been busy about your birth have protected you at home? When you grew up, what did you accomplish remarkable? What did you say? We challenged you in the temple to give us a sign as your credential. You had none to give.

 

    You cured diseases, it is said. You restored dead bodies to life. You fed multitudes with a few loaves. These are the common tricks of the Egyptian wizards, which you may see performed every day in our markets for a few halfpence. They too drive out devils, heal sicknesses, call up the souls of the dead, provide suppers and tables covered with dishes, and make things seem what they are not. We do not call these wizards sons of God. We call them rogues and vagabonds.

 

The church father, Epiphanius, explains away the allegation of Celsus that the Christian god had a father called Panther by admitting that Joseph’s father, Jesus’s grandfather, was called Panther. John of Damascus however corrects Epiphanius when he copied and extended his work on heresies, saying that Panther was Mary’s grandfather. The Talmud agrees with Celsus that Panther was the husband of Mary and therefore the father of Jesus. Origen excuses the description of the boatmen as of abandoned character as because they had rejected the law of Moses, along with Jesus—misunderstood as lawless. Celsus’s Jew then addresses his fellow countrymen.

 

    What madness can have possessed you to leave the law of the fathers? Can you conceive that we, who were looking for the coming of the Messiah, should not have recognized him had this been he? His own followers even were not convinced, or they would not have betrayed and deserted him. If he could not command those who daily saw and spoke with him, shall he convince you now that he is gone? He suffered, you pretend, to destroy the power of evil. Have there been no other sufferers? Was he the only one?

 

    He worked miracles, you say, he healed the lame and the blind, he brought the dead to life. But, oh light and truth, did he not himself tell you, is it not written in your own books, that miracles could be worked by imposters? He calls Satan a master of such arts, so that he admits himself that they are no evidence of divine action. Are you to argue from the same works that one man is god, and another a servant of Satan? Why is one a servant of Satan more than the other?

 

    You say he prophesied that he would himself rise from the dead, and he did rise. How many others produce wonders like this to convince simple hearers whom they exploit by deceit? Zalmoxis, the slave of Pythagoras, told the Scythians that he had come back from the dead. So Pythagoras told the Italians. Rhampsinitus pretended to have played dice with Demeter in Hell, and he showed a golden napkin which Demeter had given to him. Orpheus among the Odrysians, Protesilaus in Thessaly, Hercules at Tænarum, Theseus, all are said to have died and risen again. But did anyone really rise—really—in the body in which he had lived? Or shall we say that all these stories are fables, but that yours is true?

 

    Who saw your prophet after he rose—an hysterical woman or some of his own companions who dreamt of him or were deluded by their enthusiasm—an experience that has happened to thousands? More likely they wanted to impress others with this fantastic tale and so provide a chance for other beggars with this cock-and-bull story. All the world were witnesses of his death. Why were none but his friends witnesses of his resurrection? Had he desired to prove that he was God, he would have appeared to his accusers and his judge, or he would have vanished from the cross.

 

    We hope that we shall rise again in our bodies and have eternal life, that he will be a guide and example in the resurrection, and that one who is to come will prove that with God nothing is impossible. Where is your prophet now that we might see and believe? Did he come among us that we might reject him? He was a man—such a man as truth shows him to have been and common sense declares.

(Emphasis mine)

 

Try that one on for size.

Casey

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Celsus is cool. We owe it to this brave dude and others like him to carry on the banner of truth and investigation. As I understand it, we don't have any of his writings directly available to us. They have all mysteriously "vanished."

 

But, the early christians messed up. Origen wrote a lengthy argument against Celsus, in which he details lots and lots of Celsus' statements. So much for destroying the evidence. In making an argument against Celsus, Origen guaranteed that Celsus would be preserved.

 

What I wonder is; how many other Celsuses were there? How many other clear thinkers wrote in opposition to christianity in the first few centuries? How much of history has been obliterated by the Pious God Hucksters?

 

We'll never know.

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You cured diseases, it is said. You restored dead bodies to life. You fed multitudes with a few loaves. These are the common tricks of the Egyptian wizards, which you may see performed every day in our markets for a few halfpence. They too drive out devils, heal sicknesses, call up the souls of the dead, provide suppers and tables covered with dishes, and make things seem what they are not. We do not call these wizards sons of God. We call them rogues and vagabonds.

 

Interesting. How much do you want to bet that the writers of the bible knew about this, had either heard of it, read about it somewhere, or possibly witnessed it themselves? Sounds like just another myth that they stole from another religion.

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