Youtube Conversation Under Shelley Segal Song

[★ Citsonga ★]

At the Reason Rally I heard Shelley Segal for the first time. One of the songs she sang was this one:

 

 

Anyway, under that video I read a comment from someone going by "songsofjesus" and felt the need to reply. Here is our exchange so far (in chronological order, since it can be difficult to follow on the YouTube comments page):

 

 

songsofjesus: The real reason people reject God is because "they love darkness instead of light". The bible says we've sinned against God- we don't like to hear that, or admit that we often love things that He hates. So we harden our conscience or say He doesn't exist; we push Him out because we don't want to hear what He has to say. All He wants us to do is come clean and admit the truth about ourselves. Knowing Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to me. He's real- so is His love and forgiveness.

 

Me: Your religion has blinded you to reality. It would be incredibly stupid for us to do what you say we do, rejecting God out of pride and knowingly subjecting ourselves to eternal torture. That is both insulting and ridiculous. I used to be a Christian, and it was studying the Bible to grow closer to God that eventually opened my eyes to the fact that Christianity is mythology. I did NOT want to give up Christianity, but I had no choice, given the evidence.

 

songsofjesus: Most of us have done things in our life that we knew were self destructive, but we went right ahead and did them anyway. Why wouldn't we do the same with God? So what I'm saying is not insulting or ridiculous, it's simply the truth. God wants us to admit that truth to Him; to agree with Him about our sin, and accept His remedy in Jesus. If the bible doesn't show the reality of our human condition I don't know what does. So why did you give up being a Christian?

 

Me: I told you in my previous post why I am no longer a Christian. Studying the Bible (to grow closer to God) led me to the realization that it's mythology. It is that and that alone, my friend. If you want to preach to me, I assure you that there is nothing you can say that I have not heard. I spent decades as a Christian and taught Bible studies and Sunday school. BTW, the position you've put forth IS insulting and is NOT the truth (at least for many of us).

 

One more thing. While most of us have intentionally done something potentially destructive in our youth, many of us realize the foolishness of such and refrain from it (it's called growing up). As an adult, I have NEVER intentionally done something destructive. When my faith was overcome by reason, I was NOT looking for a way to reject God. I WANTED to KEEP believing in the only worldview I had known (Christianity). Your characterization of me is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of reality.

 

songsofjesus: You were speaking in generalities and I was wondering what the specific evidence was that led you to conclude the bible is mythology. You speak about having studied the bible to grow closer to God. I assume then at some point in your life you must have felt He existed. If so, what happened?  What was this evidence that affected you to the point of denying what you previously believed

 

I would call rejecting the God who made you (the one you will one day have to stand before and give an account to) a very self destructive act. You say you have never intentionally done anything self destructive since becoming an adult. Well, you know what the bible says about Jesus; how He died for you and all of that- and you are presently choosing to reject Him. If He does exist, as the bible claims, I can think of nothing more self destructive. He alone gives eternal life!

 

Me: "Choosing to reject" Jesus? That is a common misconception, but I already told you that I did not want to leave Christianity. It was my life, my worldview, the very essence of my being. I would never have chosen to walk away from that, because I did not want to walk away from it. It was comforting. However, the evidence that mounted against it was overwhelming, and I eventually realized that it's mythology. That was/is NOT a choice.

 

"The specific evidence" is way too detailed for such a limited forum as this. I wrote my parents a 49 page letter spelling out in great detail the reasons why I no longer believe Christianity, from the Bible itself, and even that letter didn't cover everything. There is no way to adequately convey the insurmountable evidence in the space allotted by this forum. I will give one more reply with basic topics, though.

 

This is way too brief, but in a nutshell, my doubts started when I realized that there are real contradictions in the Bible. What really sunk the ship, though, was studying the "Christological prophecies" and realizing that NT authors repeatedly took OT texts out of context in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments. Nobody with a true story to tell would need to stoop to such underhanded tactics. Yes, I am aware of the "dual prophecy" argument, but it is seriously problematic.

 

After the contradictions and fabricated prophetic fulfillments opened my eyes to the fact that the Bible is contrived and unreliable, I started to realize some of the other problems with it. For example, the Bible endorses slavery, forced marriage and child murder. Before you say, "That's the OT," remember this is supposed to be the SAME GOD as in the NT, and Christians claim that morality is absolute. The Bible is clearly written by ancient ignorant men, not an all-knowing God.

 

songsofjesus: I've read the bible through many times and have never found "insurmountable evidence" that would prove God is a myth. I have found plenty of evidence that it correctly describes the human condition though. Reading the bible has had the effect of increasing my faith in God, so my experience is completely opposite of yours in that regard. I do agree that the limited space YT gives doesn't leave much room for real discussion

 

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19:10) Everything revolves around Jesus and points to Him- He is the centerpiece of the Word of God. The bible is not a book about religion, it's about relationship- how God desires relationship with us and how our sins have broken our relationship with Him- and finally, how Jesus has come as the one who is able to restore our relationship with God by paying the price for our sins and bringing reconciliation.

 

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate you sharing some of your reasons. The purpose of the bible is to lead us to Jesus Christ so that we can be reconciled to God. The law was given to Moses, for example, with the full knowledge that we could not keep it! It was given to prove to us our sinfulness and our need of a Savior outside of ourself. Try reading the bible from that perspective- it's God's intention to bring reconciliation; it's not a religious book, it's a relationship book.

 

Me: I never said the Bible proves that God is a myth (in the sense that no got at all could exist). I said that it proves that Christianity is mythology. For many years reading the Bible increased my faith as well, but that's because I read it through the indoctrination that I had received. When you look at it with rose-colored glasses and don't apply any critical thinking to it, then you're not as likely to see the problems. It took me a long time, but eventually it all fell apart.

 

No need to quote the Bible and talk about a relationship. Like I said before, there is nothing you can say that I haven't already heard. I used to proclaim the same stuff myself. I was 100% convinced that it was true. Eventually reality set in and I started to see the serious problems that preachers and apologists like to pretend aren't there. BTW, it's a little ironic how Christians like to downplay "religion" and tout a relationship when James 1:27 paints "religion" positively.

 

Once again, I know fully well the Christian stance, so I know "the purpose of the Bible" from your perspective. I used to share that perspective. You say, "Try reading the Bible from that perspective," but I DID for YEARS. I was really into it and taught Bible studies and Sunday school, and even had a pastor ask me if I had considered going into the ministry. As far as the OT supposedly showing our sinfulness, what about its ENDORSEMENT of MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE activities?

 

The problem with the way Christians tend to read the Bible (the ones who actually do read the Bible, that is) is that they start with the assumption that it's the word of God instead of critically evaluating it to see if it stands up under scrutiny. Muslims do the same thing with the Qu'ran and Mormons do the same thing with the Book of Mormon. If you refuse to scrutinize what you've been indoctrinated with, then you will NEVER break free from it, even if it is completely wrong.

[jackbauer]

Lets see

 

-Accuse non believers of wanting to live an immoral life. CHECK

-Claim it's not a religion, but a "relationship" with Jesus Christ. CHECK

-Use some thinnly veiled threats, implying judgment or hell. CHECK

-Switch the burdon of proof. CHECK

 

Sounds like standard Christian rhetoric to me. Though I give him/her credit for not playing the "you were never a Christian" card... YET.

[London]

I just hate the whole "reject god" smack they talk. Present "god" so that I can make a choice of accept or reject.

 

This video explains it quite well.

 

[★ Citsonga ★]

Thanks for the video, London. I had seen it once before, but it was great to see it again.

[BrookeGF]

This was actually really helpful for me. I used to be that person on Youtube. But it's good to see a little bit of your ex-timony in your responses. I have studied the Bible diligently for about a year and the same thing is happening to me.

[BrookeGF]

Lets see

 

-Accuse non believers of wanting to live an immoral life. CHECK

-Claim it's not a religion, but a "relationship" with Jesus Christ. CHECK

-Use some thinnly veiled threats, implying judgment or hell. CHECK

-Switch the burdon of proof. CHECK

 

Sounds like standard Christian rhetoric to me. Though I give him/her credit for not playing the "you were never a Christian" card... YET.

 

Ha ha the sad thing is that you are completely right. I used to get into these conversations as a Christian. Somehow all Christians do this even though we are not taught this. It's like some kind of brainwashing or something.

 

And I was also expecting him/her to play the "you were never saved" card. That was always one of good 'ol Ray Comfort's responses in his book, The Defender's Guide for Life's Toughest Questions. Perhaps they are an armenian baptist.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I just got some more replies from songsofjesus in my inbox. I can't access YouTube from my work computer, so I can't respond until this evening. Anyway, once again this individual has shown a complete lack of any understanding of where people like me are coming from. Here are the latest comments:

 

songsofjesus: I'm sorry to hear that. There's plenty I don't agree with in modern Christianity, but I still love Jesus and I still love Christians. I read the bible through a few times before I ever stepped in a church. I knew what I believed before I ever sat on a pew and wasn't indoctrinated or brainwashed. So again, my experience seems to be very different than yours.

 

I've heard you talking about teaching bible studies and Sunday school and having a world view of Christianity- what I don't hear is the language of relationship. It's not about Christianity; it's about Jesus- walking with Him; relating to Him; following Him and living with Him. Jesus never told us to follow Christianity, He said, "Come follow me..." Churches are filled with people who think going to church is the same thing as following Jesus- it isn't by a long shot.

 

There's no contradiction between James 1:27 and Christians putting an emphasis on relationship over religion. The bible is clear from Genesis to Revelation that God seeks to restore our lost relationship with Him. James 1:27 doesn't in any way contradict what I just said.

 

If you used to share my perspective why then do you say that you're not choosing to reject God now? Of course you are! If you once shared my perspective you believed in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And from everything I've read you certianly don't believe in that now. So how can you say that walking away from God is not something you chose to do? It is exactly what you chose to do. Nobody forced you to deny Christ did they? Unless I'm wrong and you still believe in Jesus.

[Zephie]

They really don't get it do they? Christianity is a religion. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts...it is a religion. One can delude themselves into thinking that they have a "relationship" with Jesus. Why can't people see this? This person is an asshole who is completely ignoring what you are saying.

[London]

I would mention that if it's a relationship it can't be tax exempt. Only religions are tax exempt. And only a cult religion has gods.

[owen652]

 

songsofjesus: I've read the bible through many times and have never found "insurmountable evidence" that would prove God is a myth. I have found plenty of evidence that it correctly describes the human condition though.

 

sounds familiar. i was talking to a JW the other day and he was genuinely flummoxed when i suggested there might be problems and contradictions in the Bible. he said that in 50 years of Bible study he had never never come across anything that he found contradictory. either he was lying to my face or he's been lying to himself for 50 years. i've always thought that anyone who says 'I have never once doubted my faith' has never honestly examined it.

[★ Citsonga ★]

OK, here are my replies to the last installment of songsofjesus' comments.

 

Me: I can't speak for your particular experience, but I do have to wonder who/what influenced you to read the Bible in the first place. At any rate, the fact is that the vast, vast majority of religious people follow the religion that they were most exposed to when growing up. Some were heavily indoctrinated, while others were merely influenced by the culture around them. Either way, you can look at a world map and see Christian regions, Muslim regions, Hindu regions, etc.

 

Regarding your "language of relationship" charge, think a little bit. I no longer believe in Christianity, so why would I now describe it as a relationship? When I believed it I DID think it was a relationship. As of now, don't you see that it would be self-contradictory and patently absurd to say, "Christianity isn't true, it's mythology, but I once had a personal relationship with Jesus"??? Don't expect EX-believers to continue phrasing things the way believers would say them.

 

I didn't actually call that a "contradiction." Even so, you previously said, "The bible is not a book about religion, it's about relationship." That sounds like typical evangelical Christian disdain for "religion." If "religion" is bad, then James 1:27 is a problem for you. If "religion" is good, then why be so friggin' negative about "religion" when talking about Christianity? No matter how you want to slice it, though, Christianity IS a religion.

 

No I am not "choosing to reject God," so stop it with the false accusations. Keep in mind that I have become convinced that Christianity is not true, so everything I thought about it before does not apply anymore. If you're so confident that someone can actually choose whether or not to believe something that he/she is convinced is not true, then prove it right now by choosing to believe in the Easter Bunny. I'd bet my life savings that you can't do it.

 

By the way, I see that you're consistently avoiding the morality issues I've brought up. Cat got your tongue? So tell me, why does the Bible endorse morally reprehensible behavior? To expand, do you really believe that it is justifiable to force a rape victim to marry her rapist? Is it OK to force captives into slavery and beat them within an inch of their lives? Is it OK to murder babies? Would a perfect God promote such brutal and unjust behavior?

[★ Citsonga ★]

This was actually really helpful for me. I used to be that person on Youtube. But it's good to see a little bit of your ex-timony in your responses. I have studied the Bible diligently for about a year and the same thing is happening to me.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

So, you were a YouTube apologist who came to see the light? Congratulations!

 

By the way, since you're experiencing something similar to what I went through in my deconversion, perhaps you'd like to see the 49 page letter I mentioned in one of my replies to songsofjesus. You can download it from post #13 in the following thread: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/47622-letter-to-my-christian-parents/page__fromsearch__1

 

Take care....

[stryper]

Generally better to stay out of youtube fights. They are worse than facebook.

 

Great song BTW

[★ Citsonga ★]

Generally better to stay out of youtube fights.

 

I very rarely do so. So far, though, this guy/gal hasn't been quite the prick that some YouTubers are. Other than him/her falsely accusing me of "choosing to reject Jesus" and not being able to think outside the box of Christian programming (which I understand, since I used to wear the same shoes), I think it's been decent so far.

[★ Citsonga ★]

i've always thought that anyone who says 'I have never once doubted my faith' has never honestly examined it.

 

It's not necessarily a matter of honesty. Some, such as myself, were so thoroughly indoctrinated that it can take years and years to start to see the cracks in it. It can be very difficult for the brainwashed to critically evaluate what they've been programmed with. Beyond that, some just don't have the intelligence to critically evaluate things at all (Thumbelina comes to mind).

[owen652]

i've always thought that anyone who says 'I have never once doubted my faith' has never honestly examined it.

 

It's not necessarily a matter of honesty. Some, such as myself, were so thoroughly indoctrinated that it can take years and years to start to see the cracks in it. It can be very difficult for the brainwashed to critically evaluate what they've been programmed with. Beyond that, some just don't have the intelligence to critically evaluate things at all (Thumbelina comes to mind).

 

maybe, but speaking for myself, i must admit that i was lying to myself. i had SO many doubts and questions but simply suppressed them, which is a kind of intellectual dishonesty.

[MrsRoper]

I admire you for even getting in this fight. I get completely mental just reading her idiotic comments, I couldn't get involved with her at all.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Here's the next (and possibly final) installment:

 

songsofjesus: Sorry, you're not going to lure me down that path. 1 Peter 3:16 says, ..."Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, JUST AS THEY DO WITH OTHER PARTS OF SCRIPTURE. And this will result in their destruction."

 

You told me that at one time you believed in having a personal relationship with God, and that you honestly thought you had one. Now you say you don't believe in God (you mentioned to another commenter that for all practical purposes you're an atheist). So, yes, you are rejecting God- or the notion of Him, or however you want to put it. The God you say you once believed in, is now nothing more than a myth to you. How is that not a rejection of what you previously held to be true?

 

I think we've ridden this horse about as far as we can go. I'm going to bow out at this point as it seems we've both clearly stated our positions. Thanks for the conversation and keeping things respectful.

 

Me: I can quote the Bible too. Here you go: "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives" (Deut 22:28-29). I'm not twisting anything there. That's your supposedly good God COMMANDING that rape victims marry their rapists! That is morally reprehensible.

 

"How is that not a rejection...?" First, let me thank you for not using the word "choose" this time (does that mean that you now realize your error in that?). Now, to answer your question, it depends on what you mean by "rejection." If you mean it in the sense of not believing it, in the same way that you and I both "reject" the Easter Bunny, then indeed it is. But if you mean it in the sense of rebellion, then no it is absolutely not.

 

Thank you as well for keeping things respectful (well, repeatedly falsely accusing me of choosing to reject Jesus was disrespectful, but otherwise you were polite). It's interesting that after you were challenged again with multiple morally reprehensible things endorsed by the Bible, you want to end the conversation. I guess you have no answers to the glaring problems. This makes it appear like you're in denial. Regardless, I wish you well in your future endeavors. Take care....

[owen652]

owned.

well done.

[jblueep]

Great job Citsonga. Debating with xtians is like talking to a wall most of the time. But when we were believers we thought well of "planting seeds". I think we should still think well of that, although we are now planting seeds of rationality.

[jackbauer]

Isn't it funny how when faced with a question or arguement they can't counter, they'll make some accusation of you using the Bible against them or hating God? Something similar happened in a blog discussion a day or two ago. The question was why didn't Jesus predict something in the future or provide us with some grand scientific theory that would change the world. Good question, but the Christian commentor accused the author of "not liking Jesus".

[London]

I know, it's always some excuse that is turned around on you. It's your fault that you don't believe-love-worship-feel jesus/god. The human gets blamed for everything.

 

Seems to me that when xians get called out on the lies of their religion they always make it out to be your fault. And that's why I see so many xians as liars. It's like politicians and car dealers and shady lawyers, you never get an answer. The truth and facts get glossed over. And not just in a simple way but in a manner that looks down on you and acts all superior in the process.

 

"Well peon, you are way too dumb to understand the word of god, and in the end you will burn in hell for that."

 

That's how I feel they behave when you ask for a clarification.

 

I just love how I am damned to a place I don't believe in. May as well banish me to the mythical planet of Orgazma!

[owen652]

 

May as well banish me to the mythical planet of Orgazma!

 

exactly what sins do i need to commit to go THERE? Please tell me!

[London]

May as well banish me to the mythical planet of Orgazma!

 

exactly what sins do i need to commit to go THERE? Please tell me!

 

owen, you are next in line, thanks for waiting, please follow the lovely lady down the hall.

[mymistake]

Actually the whole conversation could have taken place in our own Lion's Den. If the author were a different Christian it would only change the comments slightly. The Christians use pretty much the same tricks. Some of them fight more dirty than others. But it all follows the same general pattern. Every time the Christians demonstrate they no can do logic. It's a systematic error that must be caused by their religion. Believing in Christianity must cause them to set logic aside regarding their religion. Of course all the ex-Christians here can remember doing it.